Key Moments
Matt Mullenweg Interview (Full Episode) | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)
Tim FerrissKey Moments
Matt Mullenweg discusses WordPress, distributed work, productivity, and life philosophies.
Key Insights
WordPress's open-source origins and philosophy of freedom, modification, and distribution.
Automatic's success as a fully distributed company with a focus on autonomy and talent acquisition globally.
The importance of long-term vision and systems thinking over short-term incentives.
Effective communication and collaboration tools for remote teams, like P2 and Slack.
Personal productivity strategies including deliberate practice, keyboard efficiency (Dvorak), and intentional repetition in media consumption.
The evolution of hiring practices towards evaluating actual work and cultural fit through text-based communication and trial projects.
THE BIRTH AND PHILOSOPHY OF WORDPRESS
Matt Mullenweg's journey with WordPress began at 19 when he forked an existing open-source project, B2, due to its stalled development. He emphasizes that open source, under licenses like GPL, grants users four essential freedoms: to use, study, modify, and distribute the software. This philosophy, focusing on web standards and user empowerment, was crucial in differentiating WordPress and fostering its widespread adoption, exemplified by the famous '5-minute install' which set it apart from more complex, profit-driven competitors.
AUTOMATIC: A MODEL FOR DISTRIBUTED WORK
Matic, the company behind WordPress.com and numerous plugins, was founded from the necessity to provide sustainable services, starting with the anti-spam system Akismet. A core differentiator is its fully distributed nature, with over 300 employees in 37 countries. This model, adopted from day one, leverages global talent and offers employees freedom and autonomy, challenging the traditional Silicon Valley model by accessing a wider talent pool beyond the Bay Area.
SYSTEMS THINKING AND LONG-TERM VISION
Drawing parallels to political science and historical analysis, Mullenweg highlights the importance of systems thinking. He uses the analogy of a dog chasing a car to illustrate how many entrepreneurs fail to plan for success. This perspective influences his approach to product development and company strategy, ensuring that decisions are made with long-term implications in mind, rather than solely focusing on immediate gains, a principle that guided WordPress's evolution from a blogging platform to a comprehensive content management system and application platform.
COMMUNICATION AND PRODUCTIVITY TOOLS
Effective communication is paramount in a distributed environment. Mullenweg champions P2, an internal platform for asynchronous communication that replaces email at Automatic, emphasizing its searchability and public-by-default nature to foster transparency. For real-time interactions, Slack serves as a modern replacement for IRC and Skype, offering a user-friendly interface for instant messaging. He also personally utilizes tools like the Momentum Chrome extension for daily focus and SimpleNote for quick, synchronized note-taking.
PERSONAL HABITS AND DELIBERATE PRACTICE
Mullenweg shares insights into his personal routines, including a past experiment with polyphasic sleep, a deep appreciation for the Dvorak keyboard layout for efficiency and comfort, and the practice of listening to music on repeat to enhance focus during deep work. He relates these to deliberate practice, inspired by his musical background on the saxophone, stressing the importance of consistently working on weaknesses to achieve long-term growth and mastery.
HIRING FOR TALENT AND CULTURAL FIT
Automatic's hiring process is meticulously designed to identify self-motivated individuals, eschewing traditional brain teasers for methods that mirror the actual job. This includes text-based interviews to mitigate bias, simple coding tests, and paid trial projects. Mullenweg emphasizes evaluating communication skills, attention to detail, and drive, believing that clarity of writing often indicates clarity of thought, a principle he applies to assessing candidates and investing in companies.
INVESTMENT STRATEGY AND PERSONAL VALUES
While not actively trading individual stocks due to his personality, Mullenweg favors long-term investments in startups, leveraging his due diligence capabilities. He finds alignment with the binary nature of startup investing, which removes emotional decision-making pitfalls. His admiration for figures like Jeff Bezos stems from their long-term conviction and willingness to make big bets, even if they sometimes fail. He highlights the value of transparency and setting clear expectations with investors, a principle that has guided Automatic's significant funding rounds.
THE EVOLVING ROLE OF WORDPRESS AND LEARNING
WordPress is moving into its third wave as an application platform, providing primitives for developers to build diverse applications beyond blogs and CMS. This makes it an efficient starting point for many tech ventures. Mullenweg draws heavily on books by authors like Peter Drucker and Naval Ravikant to inform his business thinking and advises young entrepreneurs to read widely, embrace deliberate practice, and especially, to slow down to achieve greater long-term success and impact.
Mentioned in This Episode
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●People Referenced
Common Questions
Matt Mullenweg started WordPress at age 19 as an open-source project, forking from an existing blogging platform called B2 whose creator had disappeared. He collaborated with Mike Little to continue its development, focusing on web standards and simplifying installation with the 'famous 5-minute install'.
Topics
Mentioned in this video
An enterprise social network mentioned as analogous to Automattic's internal P2 tool, serving as an internal Twitter or Facebook for work.
The company founded by Jeff Bezos, lauded for its big bets and long-term iteration strategy, but criticized after the Fire Phone's failure, illustrating the 'halo effect'.
The company founded by Matt Mullenweg, valued at over $1 billion with a fully distributed team. It offers services for WordPress, such as Akismet and Jetpack.
A large tech company that competes for engineers in the San Francisco Bay Area, making talent acquisition challenging.
An investment firm that is one of Automattic's early investors.
An online community where one can learn skills for building web startups, similar to Hacker News.
A social media platform mentioned as an alternative messaging app, but not preferred by Matt Mullenweg due to lack of desktop client features.
An algorithmic and human-curated aggregation of tech news, often linking to WordPress-powered sites. Matt Mullenweg describes it as the 'best tech newspaper in the world.'
A large tech company that competes for engineers in the San Francisco Bay Area, mentioned as an example of the overfished talent pool.
A free, fast, and optionally encrypted messaging app preferred by Matt Mullenweg over Facebook, WhatsApp, and iMessage due to its desktop client and strong encryption.
A hedge fund that is an investor in Automattic, with Lee Fixel managing their private equity investments.
A contemporary competitor to WordPress that focuses on being a service rather than being extensible.
A modern equivalent of distributed source control, used for collaboration in open-source projects and by some teams at Automattic for bug tracking.
A major tech company that competes for engineers in the San Francisco Bay Area, and is contrasted with Automattic's distributed model for hiring talent globally.
A task management app that Matt Mullenweg recently started using, with Chad Fower as a notable employee.
An early web browser for which developers had to build websites with different code compared to Internet Explorer.
An investment firm that is one of Automattic's early and 'really great' investors.
A contemporary competitor to WordPress that focuses on being a service with a single codebase, contrasting with WordPress's infinite extensibility.
A large tech company that competes for engineers in the San Francisco Bay Area, contributing to the competitive hiring landscape.
A scheduling app for social media, whose high level of salary transparency is discussed and partly criticized by Matt Mullenweg for potentially creating as many problems as it solves.
A coffee company that Matt Mullenweg is an investor in, despite not regularly drinking coffee himself.
A messaging app mentioned as an alternative, but not preferred by Matt Mullenweg due to lack of desktop client features for messaging.
A tech company famous for using brain teasers in its early hiring processes, which Google later adopted.
A music streaming service used by Matt Mullenweg for listening to music, including while working, and where he shares playlists.
A consulting firm known for using brain teasers in their hiring process.
A prominent financial newspaper that uses WordPress for its online presence.
A fantasy novel series that Matt Mullenweg highly recommends within fiction.
A movie Tim Ferriss rewatched many times for comfort and to combat isolation while writing his first book.
A magazine that Rebecca Solnit writes for, mentioned in the context of her writing career.
Frank Ocean's mixtape, considered a 'perfect album' by Matt Mullenweg, suitable for continuous listening.
A James Bond film that Tim Ferriss watched 'hundreds, probably thousands of times' on repeat for comfort while writing.
A film Matt Mullenweg watched with his mother, during which he similarly left the room during an uncomfortable scene.
A 'brilliant movie' about a pig, surprisingly chosen by Tim Ferriss for background viewing while writing 'The 4-Hour Chef' due to its subtle details.
A 'perfect album' by Radiohead, cited by Matt Mullenweg as an ideal album to listen to repeatedly due to its overall quality.
A prominent business magazine that listed Matt Mullenweg among its 25 most influential people on the web.
A major newspaper that uses WordPress to power its website.
A children's movie praised for containing elements enjoyable for adults.
A prominent tech blog that uses WordPress.
A film that Tim Ferriss would watch repeatedly on mute in his peripheral vision to feel less isolated while writing the '4-Hour Workweek'.
A jazz album by Sonny Rollins, identified by Matt Mullenweg as the one album he would take to a desert island for its enduring quality and capacity for continuous learning.
An album by Kendrick Lamar that Matt Mullenweg recommends as a 'perfect album' worth checking out.
Microsoft's web browser, which at one point required different codebases for websites to function properly compared to Netscape.
A slightly more efficient keyboard layout than Dvorak, which Matt Mullenweg would consider learning if he were starting today.
A messaging and video call application previously used by Automattic but found not to scale well for large distributed teams.
A Chrome extension that displays a beautiful photo, time, quote, and prompts for today's focus when opening a new tab, helping to reduce distraction and maintain focus.
An alternative, more efficient keyboard layout that Matt Mullenweg learned at 14 or 15. He claims it significantly reduces finger travel compared to QWERTY and is easier on tendons, and suggests it for writers.
The standard keyboard layout, which Dvorak is presented as a more efficient alternative to. Dvorak purportedly reduces finger travel significantly compared to QWERTY.
A distributed source control system used by early open-source projects; GitHub is a modern equivalent.
A news aggregation website mentioned as a point of comparison for TechMeme, with TechMeme being lauded as significantly better.
An existing open-source project that WordPress forked from when its original creator disappeared.
A photo-sharing platform whose founders also created Slack, known for its pleasant user experience.
The open-source publishing software co-founded by Matt Mullenweg, powering over 22% of the entire web. It emphasizes web standards, clean code, and easy installation.
A forum software Matt Mullenweg worked on during his polyphasic sleep period.
A competitor to WordPress that initially made money by charging for software installation services.
An enterprise social network mentioned as analogous to Automattic's internal P2 tool.
A real-time chat platform that serves as Automattic's replacement for IRC and Skype, offering public and private channels, robust search, and a consumer-grade user experience. Used for daily messaging and final applicant chats.
A bug tracker used by some teams within Automattic for project management.
An outdated programming language taught in Matt Mullenweg's college computer classes, which he found unsuited for modern web development.
A popular online platform where one can learn about building web startups from anywhere, illustrating that formal education isn't the only path.
A 7-minute workout app that Matt Mullenweg uses to make himself a 'better person' by integrating short fitness routines.
An anti-spam system developed by Matt Mullenweg, which became the first business idea for Automattic. It acts as a centralized service to adapt quickly to spammers.
An 'old text chat or IM system' used for collaboration in early open-source projects, which Slack now replaces at Automattic.
An internal tool created by Automattic (P2theme.com) that serves as a replacement for email, featuring threaded asynchronous discussions with rich media support, making all company communication public and searchable by default.
A simple notes app acquired by Automattic, known for instant synchronization across multiple platforms, and is Matt Mullenweg's preferred note-taking tool.
A meditation app that Matt Mullenweg is using to establish a daily 5-minute meditation habit, inspired by Tim Ferriss.
A bug tracker used by some teams within Automattic, reflecting the autonomy given to teams in tool selection.
Amazon's cloud computing platform, cited as an example of Bezos's strategy of going into areas where no one says they should go.
Apple's messaging service, which Matt Mullenweg finds limited as it only works with iOS devices.
A web application framework mentioned for comparison when discussing WordPress as an application platform; WordPress is noted for having more built-in features for content-related applications.
A book by Tim Ferriss that addresses concepts like polyphasic sleep and diet strategies, mentioned during the discussion on health and sleep.
A book about Jeff Bezos and Amazon, which Tim Ferriss wants to read, highlighting Bezos's entrepreneurial journey.
A book by William Zinsser about writing, mentioned as a resource Matt Mullenweg appreciates.
A prestigious business publication where Tim Ferriss published an article related to hiring practices.
A book by Rebecca Solnit that Matt Mullenweg has given as a gift, though he finds it hard to summarize, focusing on the theme of getting lost.
A book by George Lakoff, recommended by Matt Mullenweg for its insights into language and framing, similar to 'Words That Work'.
A book Matt Mullenweg is currently reading to carve out more time for fiction.
Nassim Nicholas Taleb's latest book, influential on Tim Ferriss's thinking.
A new media tech blog that uses WordPress as its platform, whose founder Om Malik is a good friend of Matt Mullenweg.
A book by Peter Thiel, highly recommended by Matt Mullenweg and Tim Ferriss as 'excellent' and 'great' for people interested in tech entrepreneurship.
A quirky fiction book by Haruki Murakami, one of Matt Mullenweg's favorites after restarting reading fiction, noted for its jazz references.
A book Matt Mullenweg is currently reading, indicating his renewed interest in self-improvement and spiritual reading.
A book by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, introduced to Tim Ferriss by Matt Mullenweg, influencing Tim's investment philosophy.
A book by Frank Luntz that Tim Ferriss read on Matt Mullenweg's recommendation, focusing on political linguistics and framing.
A book by Anne Lamott about the writing process, one of the books Matt Mullenweg loves reading about writers.
A collection of Ernest Hemingway's thoughts on writing, noted as a 'fun one' by Tim Ferriss.
A business publication that recognized Matt Mullenweg in its '30 under 30' list.
A book by Alain de Botton that Matt Mullenweg has gifted multiple times, focusing on philosophical insights.
A book by Guy Kawasaki that Matt Mullenweg loved and found inspiring when he was getting started as an entrepreneur.
A notable publication that named Matt Mullenweg one of its top 50 people on the web.
A movie (and book) with a 'mortifying scene' that Tim Ferriss's brother was surprised by in a family viewing, after Tim discreetly left.
A classic book by F. Scott Fitzgerald which Matt Mullenweg 'squandered' during his high school education, regretting not giving it more attention at the time.
A book by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, which Tim Ferriss also recommends alongside 'The Black Swan', contributing to his understanding of investing.
A book by Ben Horowitz that Matt Mullenweg found entertaining and containing good lessons, despite saying he 'would never work for this guy.'
Described as a 'genius movie' for its cool elements appealing to adults despite being a children's film.
A book about Ernest Shackleton's Antarctic expedition, read by Matt Mullenweg, highlighting fascinating survival stories.
A book by Scott Berkun about Automattic and WordPress.com, depicting the company's distributed work culture.
A classic book by Peter Drucker, highly recommended by Matt Mullenweg for its insights on management and entrepreneurship.
A major publication that utilizes WordPress as its platform.
A tech blog that runs on WordPress.
A book mentioned by Tim Ferriss in the context of open-source projects like WordPress, highlighting decentralized organizational power.
A rapper whose songs 'Gorgeous' and 'Power' are among Matt Mullenweg's repeat-listen work tracks.
Author of 'How Proust Can Change Your Life,' a book Matt Mullenweg frequently gives as a gift.
A cognitive linguist whose work on framing and language, like 'Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things,' is recommended by Matt Mullenweg for those interested in 'Words That Work'.
Founder of the Pose Method of running, known for his forward lean technique and ability to run on ice.
A performing artist involved in the 'wardrobe malfunction' incident at the Super Bowl in Houston, which Matt Mullenweg observed and his friend confirmed was not planned.
Founder of WordPress and CEO of Automattic, known for his impact on the web and his unique work philosophy. He is also described as a gifted musician.
An 'amazing guy' at Tiger Global who works on the private equity side and is an investor in Automattic.
The founder of 'Lean Gains,' mentioned as a resource for intermittent fasting for those with 'incredible discipline.'
A renowned management consultant and author, whose book 'The Effective Executive' is highly recommended by Matt Mullenweg.
An explorer whose leadership on the Endurance expedition is referenced for its challenging conditions, appealed to Tim Ferriss when hiring his assistant.
A jazz saxophonist whose album 'Saxophone Colossus' Matt Mullenweg would take to a desert island, stating he could listen to it for the rest of his life and learn something new every day.
A co-founder of Flickr and Slack, recognized for creating user-friendly software.
A prominent venture capitalist who initially challenged Automattic's distributed company model, but whose style Matt Mullenweg later understood as a test.
Author of 'The Great Gatsby,' whose work Matt Mullenweg regrets not appreciating more during his youth.
A co-founder of WordPress, who partnered with Matt Mullenweg to continue development of B2 after its original creator left.
A co-founder of Flickr and Slack, credited for the well-designed user experience of Slack.
A musician known for their 'haunting voice,' recently discovered by Matt Mullenweg and whose song 'I'm Not The Only One' he listens to on repeat while working.
Author of 'A Year Without Pants', which details the distributed work environment at Automattic.
Author of 'A Field Guide to Getting Lost,' and a writer for the New Yorker, living locally.
The host of the podcast, author of 'The 4-Hour Body' and 'The 4-Hour Workweek', discusses his personal health and productivity routines, including fasting and exercise methods.
A musician whose song 'Who Says' is on Matt Mullenweg's list of songs he listens to 'a thousand times' while working.
A pop culture figure mentioned by Matt Mullenweg to highlight his detachment from mainstream pop culture.
A former linguistic head of the Republican Party and author of 'Words That Work', known for understanding language's impact on public perception.
Founder and CEO of Amazon, whom Matt Mullenweg considers 'successful' due to his convictions and willingness to take big bets, despite recent press 'panning' after the Fire Phone's failure.
Author of 'Bird by Bird,' a book Matt Mullenweg recommends for insights into writing.
Mentioned in comparison to Matt Mullenweg's 'State of the Word' speech, likening it to the President's State of the Union address.
Described by Matt Mullenweg as the 'greatest lyricist of this generation,' whose song 'Rigamortis' and album 'Good Kid, M.A.A.D City' incorporate jazz influences and are recommended by Matt and Tim.
An Automattic employee known as 'the crazy running guy' who runs marathons from airports to WordCamps and taught Matt Mullenweg how to improve his running technique.
A legendary investor whose annual letters are highly recommended by both Matt Mullenweg and Tim Ferriss for their clarity of thinking and direct insights.
Author of 'On Writing Well,' whose work Matt Mullenweg respects for its advice on writing.
Author of 'Zero to One,' whose book is considered essential reading for aspiring tech entrepreneurs.
Author of 'Hard-boiled Wonderland and the End of the World,' a fiction book Matt Mullenweg enjoyed, noting his jazz references.
A friend mentioned by Tim Ferriss who took a video of him doing upright rows with a backpack, highlighting travel and fitness habits.
A martial artist who would travel with his running shoes and go for an orientation run upon landing in a new city, a habit Matt Mullenweg similarly appreciates.
An early investor in Automattic and current board member who famously wrote a $400,000 paper check that Matt Mullenweg misplaced.
A fantastic author Tim Ferriss was introduced to through the references in Nassim Nicholas Taleb's works.
A Twitter user who asked a question about WordPress's role in online content outside of the browser.
A musician whose mixtape 'Nostalgia, Ultra' is one of Matt Mullenweg's 'perfect albums' for repeated listening.
A hip-hop duo from an earlier era that Tim Ferriss enjoys for their breakbeats and lyrics.
Author of 'The Black Swan' and 'Antifragile,' admired by Tim Ferriss for his ability to develop hypotheses and withstand extended periods of loss in investing, and a major influence on his thinking.
Author of 'The Art of the Start,' whose book inspired Matt Mullenweg in his early entrepreneurial days.
Author of 'The Hard Thing About Hard Things,' whose book offers insights into startup leadership and challenges.
A philosophy and set of principles for software development, advocating for four freedoms: to use, study, modify, and distribute modifications. WordPress is built on this principle.
A controversial sleep concept involving breaking sleep into multiple fragments (e.g., Uberman, 2-2.5 hours in a 24-hour cycle). Matt Mullenweg found it highly productive but stopped due to relationship impacts.
An intermittent fasting protocol popularized by Martin Berkhan, suitable for individuals with high discipline.
The second wave of WordPress's evolution, where it pivoted from being just a blogging platform to powering entire websites.
A specific polyphasic sleep schedule (4 hours awake, 20-30 minutes asleep) that Matt Mullenweg experimented with, leading to one of his most productive periods.
A running method developed by Dr. Romanov, emphasizing a forward lean and using gravity, which can improve running efficiency and potentially prevent injury.
A favored sipping tequila, recommended for its quality and the absence of hangovers when consumed exclusively and responsibly.
Minimalist running shoes that Matt Mullenweg started with before switching to thin trail running shoes, noting the need for caution due to Achilles tendon risks.
A good quality tequila, mentioned as an example of a fine tequila that, when consumed exclusively, helps prevent hangovers.
An e-reader device that Matt Mullenweg keeps in his bag and uses for reading fiction and aspirational reading habits. Recommended by him to Tim Ferriss.
Amazon's mobile phone product that 'flopped,' leading to negative press and a written-down inventory of hundreds of millions of dollars, yet Matt Mullenweg still admires Jeff Bezos's big-bet philosophy.
The university Matt Mullenweg attended, where he found computer science classes to be 'terrible' due to outdated curricula focusing on Microsoft Visual Basic.
A prestigious university mentioned as a place where one might have previously needed to attend to learn skills for scalable web startups.
A prestigious university mentioned alongside Stanford as a traditional source for startup talent.
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