Key Moments
#56–Jocko Willink Part 2 of 2: Sleep, fasting, kids, discipline, ownership, & the impact of war
Peter Attia MDKey Moments
Jocko Willink discusses sleep, discipline, family, war's impact, and extreme ownership.
Key Insights
Discipline is crucial for achieving freedom and improving performance in all aspects of life.
Extreme ownership means taking responsibility for all outcomes, both good and bad, in any situation.
War has a profound impact, shaping individuals and requiring resilience and adaptability.
Sleep is vital, and while individual needs vary, consistent quality sleep is a foundational element of performance.
Effective leadership, whether in the military or family, relies on empowering others and decentralized command, not barking orders.
Indulgences, like dark chocolate or a rare milkshake, can be managed through mindful consumption and strategic replacement with healthier alternatives.
REFLECTIONS ON 9/11 AND THE IMPACT OF WAR
Jocko Willink recounts his immediate realization of the 9/11 attacks as a moment of national vulnerability, solidifying his commitment to military service. He contrasts the urban combat in Iraq, characterized by close-quarters engagements, with the broader, more distant challenges faced in Afghanistan. This perspective highlights how the principles of high ground and strategic angles remain constant, despite different terrains. The discussion also touches on the stark differences between the American military and the brutal realities of the Russian military, emphasizing the psychological toll and harsh discipline prevalent in other forces.
THE EVOLVING LANDSCAPE OF WARFARE AND TECHNOLOGY
The conversation delves into the future of warfare, anticipating a greater role for technology such as drones and robots. Willink acknowledges the potential for these machines to reduce human risk but also notes the inherent fear associated with autonomous killing machines. Despite technological advancements, he posits that human emotion and trust play a significant role, as seen in the public's hesitation towards driverless cars versus traditional vehicles. The underlying principle remains that humans will likely still be involved in critical decision-making, even with advanced technology.
INSTILLING VALUES AND DISCIPLINE IN CHILDREN
Willink emphasizes that raising children requires the same principles of leadership as managing a team: clear goals, decentralized command, and allowing them to discover truths for themselves. He shares his experience writing children's books to impart timeless lessons on discipline and responsibility. While acknowledging that his children know he is not always an authoritarian figure, he stresses the importance of apologizing for mistakes and showing vulnerability, particularly after experiencing personal loss. This approach fosters a sense of ownership over their own development.
THE COMPLEXITY OF SLEEP AND PERSONAL NEEDS
The discussion on sleep highlights Jocko's personal routine of sleeping roughly six hours per night, contrasting with expert advice. He acknowledges that individual sleep needs vary significantly, citing his own children's different sleep patterns. While he doesn't advocate for less sleep, he trusts his body's signals and doesn't feel chronically tired. He also describes intense sleep experiences with sweating and vivid dreams, sometimes aided by cooling mattress pads, indicating a deep and perhaps restorative sleep cycle despite the shorter duration.
NAVIGATING DISCOURAGEMENT AND THE CONCEPT OF QUITTING
Willink differentiates between strategic pivots and outright quitting. He believes in abandoning a flawed plan (tactical surrender) to achieve larger goals but never giving up on the overarching objective. He recounts a challenging marathon swim where, despite a dislocated shoulder and immense pain, he pushed through the desire to quit, finding immense difficulty in not yielding to the current. This experience underscored the internal battle against the urge to give up, even when rationalizing it seemed easy.
UNDERSTANDING AND WORKING WITH DIVERSE MINDSETS
When faced with individuals who make excuses or externalize blame, Willink advocates for taking ownership of their shortcomings, thereby disarming them and encouraging them to do the same. He believes that leaders must provide the necessary resources or adjust expectations. While acknowledging that people are who they are, he also recognizes the possibility of radical transformation, asserting that true change must come from within the individual, with leaders merely illuminating the path. Those who cannot embrace ownership often don't last in his organizations.
INDULGENCES, FASTING, AND BALANCE
Willink reveals that he does not drink alcohol, having stopped upon retiring from the Navy. His primary indulgence is dark chocolate, particularly 72% cacao, consumed mindfully. He also discusses his intermittent fasting routine, typically practicing one or two days a week, with quarterly 72-hour fasts. Despite occasional initial discomfort, he finds fasting empowering and beneficial for his overall well-being, noting that his workouts often feel good even during fasting periods. He emphasizes that even in indulgences, the goal is satisfaction, not overconsumption.
THE POWER OF EXTREME OWNERSHIP AND TAKING RESPONSIBILITY
The core concept of 'extreme ownership' is Jocko's guiding principle: taking full responsibility for everything that happens. He illustrates this by explaining that if a subordinate doesn't complete a task, the leader must first own the failure, then determine how to rectify it—whether by securing funding, providing resources, or adjusting scope. This approach fosters a culture of accountability, where excuses are invalid, and problems are solved proactively. It's a powerful, disarming strategy that leads to greater commitment and effectiveness within a team.
Mentioned in This Episode
●Supplements
●Products
●Companies
●Organizations
●Books
●People Referenced
Common Questions
Jocko Willink was in college at the University of San Diego on 9/11. He heard about the first plane hitting the tower early in the morning, initially thinking it was an accident. When the second plane hit, he immediately realized the country was under attack. Within a day or two, he called his detailer, begging to be pulled from college and sent to a SEAL Team.
Topics
Mentioned in this video
A decorated Special Operations unit of SEAL Team Three, commanded by Jocko Willink during the Battle of Ramadi.
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration, discussed in relation to its approval and classification of allulose.
A terrorist organization that approached Ramadi, leading to calls for American intervention, and was later largely annihilated when it became a conventional army.
The institution where Jocko Willink was attending college during the September 11th attacks.
A business and financial news channel where Jocko Willink was interviewed and jokingly demonstrated his morning routine.
Mentioned in the context of Saddam Hussein not allowing UN inspectors to verify the presence of weapons of mass destruction.
A mixed martial arts gym in San Diego co-founded by Jocko Willink.
A mutual friend of Jocko Willink and Peter Attia, also a former Navy SEAL, who studies and advises on sleep.
The former leader of Iraq, discussed for his use of chemical weapons and his bluff regarding weapons of mass destruction.
Philosopher and author known for his views and book on free will, which Jocko and Peter discussed.
His podcast was mentioned as the platform where Matt Walker discussed sleep science.
A sleep expert who was on Joe Rogan's podcast, whose research on sleep deprivation prompted Jocko Willink to joke about his own atypical sleep habits.
Former Navy SEAL commander, bestselling author, podcaster, and leadership consultant. Discussed for his military career, views on sleep, discipline, and parenting.
A Russian soldier and journalist who wrote the book 'One Soldier's War' and faked his own assassination in Ukraine.
A legendary Vietnam veteran and SEAL whom Jocko Willink looked up to, who shared his experiences returning from the war.
Man-portable air-defense systems supplied to Afghan fighters, which caused significant issues for Soviet aircraft.
A brand of sparkling mineral water Jocko Willink was drinking during the podcast.
Automated aircraft used in warfare, discussed as a key technology for future conflicts, raising questions about autonomy and human trust.
Autonomous vehicles, used as an analogy to discuss public trust in technology versus human error, noting high media attention on accidents.
A sports powder supplement created by Jocko Willink, described as an equivalent to a mint chocolate chip milkshake, which he mixes with milk.
A bed cooling system that Jocko Willink uses to manage sweating and improve sleep quality.
Robotic surgical devices used to assist in operations, particularly beneficial for complex procedures like prostatectomies due to enhanced precision and visibility.
The region where Arkady Babchenko fought, described as a brutal insurgency.
A city in Iraq where Jocko Willink's unit led a significant battle and where the civilian populace was receptive to coalition forces but later suffered under ISIS.
Mentioned to clarify that Jocko Willink's surfing experience at Ocean Beach was in San Diego, not San Francisco.
A country where Jocko Willink visited but did not fight. Compared to Iraq by combat veterans.
The location of Victory MMA and the Ocean Beach Jocko Willink mentioned.
A series of children's books written by Jocko Willink to teach kids discipline and life principles.
A book by Jocko Willink (and Leif Babin) about leadership principles, mentioned by Sam Harris as aligning with the concept of free will.
A book mentioned by Olivia Attia as her favorite, attributed to her dad, Peter Attia.
A book written by Arkady Babchenko, covered on Jocko Willink's podcast, detailing the brutal conditions and low morale in the Russian army during the Chechnya conflict.
A leadership consulting company co-founded by Jocko Willink after his military career.
A left-leaning news organization that produced a piece on ISIS approaching Ramadi, which surprisingly validated the US military's efforts.
One of the first companies mentioned to work with Allulose in their products.
A company mentioned for using Allulose in their products.
A sweetener with taste and mouthfeel similar to sugar but low calorie and not absorbed, recently approved by the FDA; suggested for future supplement editions.
A natural sweetener used in Jocko Willink's MOLK supplement, praised for its taste and metabolic inertness.
A supplement Peter Attia uses in conjunction with Kirk Parsley's supplement to achieve deep, intense sleep while fasting.
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