What is a 'Moon Board' in rock climbing and where did Nick Norris build them?

A Moon Board is a standardized climbing wall with a fixed set of holds, templated by legendary climber Ben Moon, allowing climbers globally to practice and replicate specific boulder problems. Nick Norris, a former Navy SEAL, built three Moon Boards in unusual locations during his active duty: in Zamboanga, Philippines; Ramadi, Iraq; and at a firebase in Zabul province, Afghanistan.

What separates good from truly exceptional performers in dynamic flying?

Exceptional dynamic flyers exhibit extensive time together as a team, allowing them to read each other's body language and predict movements through repetition. They also demonstrate constant, fearless movement, trusting teammates completely even in confined, high-speed spaces.

What are the attributes of exceptional rock climbers beyond innate talent?

Exceptional rock climbers possess an innate ability to 'try hard' and relentlessly pursue perfection, demonstrating immense tenacity and grit. This involves consistently applying high intensity to every training session, even when painful, rather than just focusing on volume.

How does Nick Norris mentally prepare for a difficult rock climbing route?

In the moments leading up to a redpoint attempt, Nick focuses on clearing his head and using visualization. He mentally climbs through the entire problem, moving his hands as if grasping each hold, to overcome mental blocks that can hinder performance despite physical readiness.

What role did adventure racing play in Nick Norris's preparation for becoming a Navy SEAL?

Nick participated in multi-sport adventure races like Eco Challenge, which involved paddling, hiking, mountaineering, mountain biking, and significant sleep deprivation. He viewed these races as excellent training for the mental toughness required for SEAL training, drawing him to the extreme endurance and resilience demanded.

What is stress inoculation and is exposure to cold/heat a good way to build tolerance?

Stress inoculation is the process of exposing oneself to stressors through experience to become more comfortable. However, for cold and heat exposure, the common misconception is that repeated exposure builds tolerance. In reality, it can make you more susceptible to hypothermia or hyperthermia and is not an effective form of stress inoculation in those contexts.

What challenges did Nick Norris face after leaving the military?

After leaving the Navy SEALs in 2013, Nick initially struggled with apathy, anger, agitation, and edginess, which he later identified as depression. He experienced zero interest in hobbies he once loved, difficulty coping with distractions, and a feeling of being overwhelmed, significantly impacting his personal and professional life.

What alternative treatment did Nick Norris find for his depression?

Nick Norris discovered personalized repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation (PRTMS), a focused form of TMS. After an initial EEG, magnetic pulses were applied to his frontal lobe. He experienced an immediate 'caffeinated' sensation, calming his agitation and providing the mental clarity needed to re-establish healthy habits like better sleep.

What daily habits does Nick Norris use to support his mental health and sleep?

Nick prioritizes morning sunlight exposure for 30 minutes to regulate his circadian rhythm, drinks 32 ounces of water daily for hydration, supplements with Vitamin D, and strictly limits caffeine intake to early morning. He aims for focused rather than volume-based training, and avoids caffeine later in the day to prevent sleep disruption.

What are Nick Norris's 'tell-tale signs' that indicate a potential dip in his mental health?

Nick identifies frustration and agitation as his primary warning signs. He notices himself interrupting conversations or becoming visibly irritated when he can't articulate thoughts quickly. His brother-in-law often recognizes these patterns and encourages him to take a break, highlighting the value of close friends in monitoring mental well-being.

What is the biggest contributing factor to post-military mental health struggles like depression and apathy?

Beyond physical factors like blast exposure and chronic sleep deprivation (which can cause TBI), Nick Norris believes the most significant factor is the profound loss of community, brotherhood, and purpose after leaving active duty. This void, and the transition from a team-oriented, high-trust environment, can lead to feelings of isolation and a loss of identity.

How did Nick Norris learn to cope with grief and loss effectively?

Nick was "forced" to share his life story, including traumatic losses of friends in combat and family members, during an Entrepreneurs' Organization retreat. This initially uncomfortable experience became highly therapeutic. He found that openly discussing grief, rather than suppressing it, became a liberating medicine that fostered happiness and helped him honor the memory of those lost.

What unconventional therapeutic activity did Nick Norris discover and recommend?

Inspired by his friend David Wells, Nick took up bow hunting and archery. He found shooting arrows into a speed bag in his backyard to be surprisingly therapeutic, linking it to a primal, warrior root. The activity demands focus and rhythm, offering a profound sense of gratification and a 'perpetual pursuit of perfection' akin to climbing.

What is Amavara and what makes it unique?

Amavara is Nick Norris's sunscreen company, which developed a zinc oxide-only sunscreen product with provisional patents pending. Its key differentiator is solving the common aesthetic issues of zinc oxide (white, thick, greasy) by creating a product that goes on dry and clear, while being highly water-resistant. It's endorsed by the North Shore Lifeguard Association.

Key Moments

Nick Norris — Navy SEAL and Athlete on Training | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)

Tim Ferriss

Howto & Style3 min read132 min video

Aug 9, 2019|10,892 views|137|9

tim ferriss 4 hour workweek 4 hour body 4 hour chef timothy ferriss entrepreneur author writer angel investor ferriss tim ferriss blog timothy ferriss speaker

Save to Pod

Key Moments

TL;DR

Navy SEAL Nick Norris discusses elite training, mental health, and post-traumatic growth.

Key Insights

Elite athletes and SEALs share traits like discipline, tenacity, and teamwork.

Mental health challenges like depression and PTSD are common, especially post-service.

Emerging treatments like PR TMS can offer effective relief for mental health conditions.

Prioritizing sleep, sunlight exposure, and mindful caffeine intake are crucial for well-being.

Loss of community and purpose can significantly impact mental health after service.

Expressing grief and connecting with others are vital for healing and growth.

THE DISCIPLINE OF ELITE PERFORMANCE: FROM WIND TUNNELS TO MOUNTAIN CLIMBING

Nick Norris, a distinguished Navy SEAL and accomplished athlete, draws parallels between seemingly disparate disciplines like dynamic wind tunnel flying and rock climbing. He highlights shared traits among elite performers, such as constant movement, unwavering trust in teammates, and the ability to read body language, all honed through relentless practice and time spent together. Norris also details his experience building Moon Boards in combat zones, showcasing his adaptability and resourcefulness.

PUSHING LIMITS: THE PSYCHOLOGY OF TENACITY AND GRIT

Norris emphasizes that true exceptionalism in fields like climbing and wind tunnel flying stems from an innate ability to 'try hard.' This grit, he explains, is not just about physical strength but a relentless pursuit of perfection, often requiring mental fortitude to overcome perceived limitations. He advocates for practicing this tenacity in all training, ensuring that performance under pressure becomes a conditioned response, rather than a hopeful expectation.

FACING THE SILENT CRISIS: PTSD AND THE PATH TO GROWTH

The conversation delves into the critical issue of veteran suicide, highlighting the profound impact of PTSD and the importance of distinguishing it from post-traumatic growth. Norris shares his personal experience transitioning from active duty, facing unexpected challenges with depression, agitation, and apathy. This section underscores that mental health struggles are not a sign of weakness but a common consequence of intense experiences and significant life changes.

INNOVATIVE TREATMENTS AND THE FOUNDATION OF WELL-BEING

Norris recounts his journey through various potential solutions, ultimately finding significant relief through Personalized Repetitive Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (PR TMS). He emphasizes basic pillars of well-being: prioritizing sleep, ensuring adequate morning sunlight exposure, and managing caffeine intake. These foundational habits, bolstered by treatments like TMS, create a more stable window for making healthier decisions.

THE POWER OF COMMUNITY AND RECLAIMING IDENTITY

A significant theme is the profound loss of community and brotherhood experienced after leaving military service. Norris asserts that this loss of identity and purpose is a major contributor to mental health challenges. He highlights the effectiveness of reconnecting with fellow veterans and cultivating new strong communities, whether through entrepreneurship or shared passions, as a vital countermeasure to feelings of isolation.

EMBRACING VULNERABILITY AND THE THERAPY OF GRIEF

Norris candidly discusses how expressing grief, particularly for fallen comrades and family members, has been a powerful healing mechanism. He advocates for vulnerability and open communication, noting that sharing these experiences, even when difficult, can unlock greater happiness and resilience. This process of confronting and expressing suppressed emotions is presented as a crucial step toward personal growth.

ADVERSITY AS CURRENCY: POST-TRAUMATIC GROWTH AND LESSONS LEARNED

Norris frames his experiences, including struggles with mental health, as 'currency' paid for significant personal growth. He suggests that adversity, much like injuries for professional athletes, tempers individuals and can lead to a better version of themselves. He encourages viewing challenging experiences not as liabilities, but as opportunities to learn, develop resilience, and ultimately, positively impact others.

PRACTICAL TOOLS AND THE IMPORTANCE OF SEEKING SUPPORT

Beyond PR TMS, Norris recommends practical tools and approaches such as engaging in passionate hobbies (like climbing or archery), building strong social connections, and utilizing support systems. He stresses the importance of seeking help, whether from friends, family, or professional resources, and encourages men and women to view these challenges not as weaknesses but as part of the human condition that can be addressed.

Mentioned in This Episode

●Supplements

●Software & Apps

●Companies

●Organizations

●Drugs & Medications

●Concepts

●People Referenced

Common Questions

Dynamic four-way is a wind tunnel flying discipline where teams of four perform predetermined speed rounds or artistic rounds, moving at high speeds like synchronized swimming in a glass cylinder of air. High-speed means winds between 150-170 mph, with flyers moving at 20-30 mph relative to the tunnel.

Topics

Sleep Optimization Mental Toughness Mental Health & Psychology Human Performance Mindset & Self-Improvement Rock Climbing Navy SEALs Depression Treatment Community Support Post-traumatic Growth Veteran Mental Health

Mentioned in this video

Software & Apps

WordPress

A content management system whose lead developer and CEO of Automattic, Matt Mullenweg, utilized LegalZoom for business needs.

Moon Board

A templated climbing board created by Ben Moon with unchanging holds and problems, allowing climbers worldwide to replicate specific boulder problems for training. Nick Norris built three of these while on active duty.

Personalized Repetitive Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation

A very focused form of TMS that involves an EEG and magnetic pulses to the frontal lobe to help re-tune brainwave activity, which Nick Norris found immediately effective for depression and apathy.

Organizations

SEAL Team 3

The Navy SEAL unit where Nick Norris served alongside and under Jocko Willink.

United States Naval Academy

The institution from which Nick Norris graduated before completing Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL (BUDS) training.

Tokyo

The city where Nick Norris competed in a dynamic four-way wind tunnel competition, the Sakura Cup.

Seabees

Combat construction guys who helped Nick Norris build climbing walls in combat zones.

Chicago Park District

The employer for whom Nick Norris worked as a lifeguard on the lakefront of Lake Michigan, despite being a self-proclaimed terrible swimmer.

Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies

An organization where people can learn more about phase 3 trials related to MDMA-assisted psychotherapy.

C4 Foundation

A new foundation of which Nick Norris is a board member, focusing on supporting active-duty SEAL families.

Naval Special Warfare

The command within which Nick Norris assumed progressively higher leadership positions after completing SEAL training.

Special Operations Warrior Foundation

An organization mentioned as a resource for supporting military personnel and their families.

North Shore Lifeguard Association

An organization in Hawaii, described as the 'special operations of the lifeguard world,' which endorses and partners with Amavara sunscreen due to its high performance and water resistance.

Navy SEAL Foundation

A 'four-star nonprofit on Charity Navigator' that provides benevolent support to the SEAL community and its families.

New York Yankees

The baseball team for whom David Wells, Nick Norris's friend, pitched a perfect game.

Locations

Afghanistan

One of the combat operation locations where Nick Norris served as a combat advisor and Ground Force Commander.

Zabul Province

A province where Nick Norris built a Moon Board at a firebase called Na Bihar.

Zamboanga

A location in the Philippines where Nick Norris built one of his three Moon Boards while on active duty.

Iraq

One of the combat operation locations where Nick Norris served as a combat advisor and Ground Force Commander.

Scotland

The location of the 2007 Adventure Racing World Championships, where Nick Norris raced as a member of the US team.

Schoolroom

Ben Moon's famous training gym in the UK, where the original Moon Board problems were set.

Ramadi

A location in Iraq where Nick Norris built one of his Moon Boards and where Jocko Willink's troop was deployed.

Companies

Moon Climbing

A company started by Ben Moon, known for the Moon Board and the Schoolroom training gym.

LegalZoom

A company used by entrepreneurs like Matt Mullenweg for legal services from business formation to managing tax laws and reviewing contracts, offering upfront pricing.

Automattic

The company led by Matt Mullenweg, valued at over a billion dollars, who used LegalZoom for business formation.

Amavara

Nick Norris's sunscreen company that invented a new mineral sunscreen technology using zinc oxide to protect consumer health and the environment, known for its dry, clear, and water-resistant application.

Helix Sleep

A mattress company offering a sleep quiz to match body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress, with a 10-year warranty and 100-night risk-free trial.

Drugs & Medications

Ketamine

A powerful tool for treatment-resistant depression and suicidal ideation, which is legal and available in clinics, also recently approved for nasal administration.

People

Jocko Willink

A former Navy SEAL and Tim Ferriss Show podcast guest, with whom Nick Norris served at SEAL Team 3 and later oversaw Nick's training detachment.

Nick Norris

An 11-year Navy SEAL officer, world-class athlete, startup CEO, and board member of the C4 Foundation, known for his understated demeanor and physical prowess.

Rick Rubin

A legendary music producer mentioned for his similar practice of getting 20-30 minutes of direct sunlight every morning, a habit that helped him lose over 100 pounds.

David Wells

A former pitcher for the New York Yankees, nicknamed 'Boomer,' who threw a perfect game and is a close friend and mentor to Nick Norris, introducing him to bow hunting.

Brendan Looney

A Navy SEAL and Naval Academy officer killed in a Black Hawk helicopter crash in Afghanistan in 2010, whose death profoundly impacted Nick Norris.

Ben Moon

A very famous and inspirational rock climber from the UK who created the 'Moon Board' training system.

Matt Mullenweg

CEO of Automattic and lead developer of WordPress, who used LegalZoom to form his company and is valued at over a billion dollars.

Adam Ondra

Considered arguably the most talented or strongest rock climber in the world, known for his tenacity and relentless pursuit of perfection.

Mark Burnett

The individual who made the Eco Challenge race famous.

Media

Trip of Compassion

A documentary that covers addressing PTSD using psychotherapy and MDMA, which Tim Ferriss helped produce pro bono.

Concepts

MDMA assisted psychotherapy

A therapy for PTSD that is currently going through phase 3 trials, covered in the documentary 'Trip of Compassion'.

Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL

The basic training course for Navy SEALs, class 247, which Nick Norris completed in 2004.

SEAL Qualification Training

Naval Special Warfare's basic training command where Nick Norris was assigned as officer in charge prior to transitioning from active duty.

Supplements

Magnesium

A supplement, specifically one called 'Calm,' that Nick Norris found very helpful for sleep, inducing yawning and a desire to sleep when he previously struggled.