Key Moments
Guy Raz on Building ‘How I Built This,’ Managing Depression, and Podcasts | The Tim Ferriss Show
Tim FerrissKey Moments
Guy Raz discusses podcasting, entrepreneurship, depression, and the importance of kindness.
Key Insights
Effective podcast interviewing requires deep research and creating a safe space for vulnerability.
The "How I Built This" podcast's success stems from relatable "hero's journey" narratives in entrepreneurship.
Journalism's shift from objectivity to narrative can be seen as a move towards empathy and understanding.
Embracing nuance and avoiding the pursuit of ideological purity are crucial for personal and societal growth.
Managing depression involves acceptance, self-compassion, and developing coping mechanisms over time.
Successful entrepreneurs often share an unshakeable belief in their ideas, fueled by a learned optimism.
Working in supporting industries or "servicing the gold rush" can be a more sustainable path than direct competition.
Kindness as a guiding principle is essential in a polarizing world and a differentiator for personal betterment.
Entrepreneurship is an accessible path to self-determination and innovation for anyone willing to undertake it.
THE ART OF THE INTERVIEW: BUILDING TRUST AND DEPTH
Guy Raz emphasizes that successful interviewing, particularly for "How I Built This," hinges on establishing trust and encouraging vulnerability. He achieves this by conducting extensive pre-interview research and having conversations with guests months in advance. This preparation allows him to delve beyond surface-level achievements, focusing on the full human story. Raz believes that openness about personal struggles, not just successes, fosters a deeper connection with the audience and provides a more authentic narrative.
THE 'HOW I BUILT THIS' PHENOMENON: HEROES' JOURNEYS IN BUSINESS
The immense popularity of "How I Built This" is attributed to its focus on the universal "hero's journey" within entrepreneurial narratives. Raz likens business stories to epic tales, highlighting archetypes like facing adversity, overcoming 'dragons,' and finding mentors. He intentionally crafts episodes to be cinematic and relatable, allowing listeners, even those not directly involved in business, to connect with the struggles and triumphs. The show's success was initially unexpected, growing organically through word-of-mouth, amplified by its NPR distribution.
RETHINKING JOURNALISM: FROM OBJECTIVITY TO EMPATHY
Raz reflects on his career in journalism, particularly his disillusionment with the traditional emphasis on strict objectivity. He argues that a naive pursuit of reporting 'just the facts' can lead to overlooking crucial context or enabling misinformation. Tragic events like the Sandy Hook shooting profoundly impacted him, reinforcing his belief that journalism should foster empathy and understanding by telling human stories. This led him to transition towards narrative-driven shows like "TED Radio Hour" and "How I Built This."
THE DANGERS OF PURITY AND THE VALUE OF NUANCE
Influenced by George Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia" and Arthur Koestler's "Darkness at Noon," Raz champions the importance of embracing nuance and avoiding rigid ideologies. He observes how the pursuit of ideological purity can lead to cynicism and disaster, citing Orwell's experience in the Spanish Civil War and the Stalinist purges. Raz values open-mindedness and the willingness to have one's views challenged, seeing this Bayesian approach to belief as essential for continuous learning and a more accurate understanding of the world.
NAVIGATING DEPRESSION: ACCEPTANCE AND MANAGEMENT
Raz openly discusses his personal experiences with depression, emphasizing that it's not a sign of weakness but a challenge many face. He highlights the significant transition from adolescence, with its built-in safety nets, to adulthood, where the brain is still developing. He stresses that dealing with depression is an ongoing process, becoming more manageable with age through acceptance, self-compassion, and developing coping strategies, rather than an insurmountable obstacle.
THE OPTIMISM OF ENTREPRENEURS: BELIEF AND RESILIENCE
Raz identifies an unshakeable belief, a form of learned optimism, as a common trait among successful entrepreneurs. He uses examples like Tristan Walker of Bevel and Jamie Siminoff of Ring to illustrate how founders often persevere despite significant funding challenges and rejection because they possess a deep conviction that their idea addresses a real need. This optimism isn't blind but a deeply held belief that fuels resilience and motivates them to overcome obstacles.
FINDING OPPORTUNITY: SERVICING INDUSTRIES AND 'SELLING TENTS'
A recurring pattern Raz has observed is the success of entrepreneurs who build businesses that service larger, established industries, rather than directly competing. He draws parallels to the Gold Rush, where those who sold supplies and services (like Levi Strauss) often profited more than the prospectors themselves. He encourages aspiring entrepreneurs to identify needs within existing markets, citing Belkin's success in creating peripherals for early computers as a prime example of this "servicing the gold rush" strategy.
THE POWER OF REJECTION AND BUILDING RESILIENCE
Raz considers the ability to withstand rejection as perhaps the most critical skill for entrepreneurs. He notes that encountering "no" is inevitable when bringing new ideas to life. Drawing from his interviews and personal experience, he emphasizes that developing a thicker skin through repeated exposure to rejection is crucial for sustained effort. This resilience, he argues, is often honed through early experiences in sales or persistent innovation, mirroring the tenacity of figures like Sarah Blakely and Mark Cuban.
THE FUTURE OF PODCASTING: CONVERGENCE AND CONCERNS
Looking ahead, Raz anticipates the podcasting landscape will increasingly resemble premium television, with major platforms like Spotify, Apple, and Amazon creating more "walled gardens." While this offers potential for greater creative expression, he expresses concern that it might limit consumer choice and the open ecosystem. He hopes that market forces won't exclusively prioritize content with high commercial appeal, preserving space for expensive, artistically rich productions like "Radiolab" and "Invisibilia."
THE PROFOUND IMPACT OF FATHERHOOD AND KINDNESS
Beyond his professional accomplishments, Raz identifies fatherhood as the most important aspect of his life, shaping his identity and providing immense fulfillment. He also champions kindness as a guiding principle, advocating for it as a "north star" in a world often characterized by division. He believes that actively choosing kindness, even when difficult, not only improves the world but also enhances one's own well-being, serving as a vital differentiator.
ENTREPRENEURSHIP AS SELF-DETERMINATION
Raz concludes by challenging the notion that entrepreneurs are fundamentally different from others, suggesting many possess the capacity to become one. He argues that entrepreneurship is a powerful avenue for self-determination, economic growth, and innovation, emphasizing the value of small businesses and the meaning derived from creating employment and supporting communities. He sees creating something that allows others to build a good life as a profound accomplishment, accessible to anyone willing to undertake the journey.
Mentioned in This Episode
●Products
●Software & Apps
●Companies
●Organizations
●Books
●Drugs & Medications
●Concepts
●People Referenced
Common Questions
Guy Raz and his team conduct extensive research, including public and non-public information, often knowing more about a guest's story than they do themselves. He also has a prior conversation with guests to explain the long-form, vulnerable nature of the interview, ensuring they are prepared to discuss all aspects of their journey, including potential challenges or past mistakes.
Topics
Mentioned in this video
A publication that profiled Guy Raz, referring to him as the 'Michael Phelps of podcasters.'
Mentioned by Tim Ferriss as another institution that offers case studies online, similar to Harvard Business School.
A website (ylai.state.gov) that published an interview with Guy Raz, which Tim Ferriss uses as a source to discuss Guy's career pivot.
A US political movement that Guy Raz criticized news organizations for covering as a grassroots populist movement, when it was influenced by wealthy donors.
The institution where Guy Raz was exposed to the case study method during his Nieman Fellowship, which greatly inspired the format of 'How I Built This.'
News organization where Guy Raz worked as a correspondent covering Palestine and Israel between his stints at NPR.
An institution that provided Belkin with its first major order for peripherals to connect its IBM PCs to Epson printers.
A public radio network where Guy Raz started his career, developed the 'TED Radio Hour,' and hosted 'All Things Considered.' He discusses its cultural conservatism and slow pace of change.
The company that now owns Bevel, a brand founded by Tristan Walker that started by creating razors and products for men and women of color.
An airline co-founded by Herb Kelleher, which grew to be the third-biggest in the world by adhering to the philosophy of 'think small, act small' to avoid complacency.
A retail giant targeted by Bevel for distribution, indicating the brand's successful expansion.
A chocolate company whose founder, Domingo Ghirardelli, initially tried gold prospecting but found success by making chocolates and pastries for the gold rush population.
A coffee company whose co-founder, Todd Carmichael, took a three-month sabbatical on a remote island with no electricity to overcome depression, an anecdote that resonated with Guy Raz.
An airline that collapsed due to getting too comfortable and cocky, serving as a cautionary tale for Herb Kelleher of Southwest Airlines.
Guy Raz's production company that creates children's content, including 'Wow in the World,' and organizes live events.
A restaurant empire founded by Stacey Brown, which started with door-to-door sales of chicken salad.
A massive coffee company whose former CEO, Howard Schultz, emphasized constant self-interrogation to prevent complacency, a practice Guy Raz tries to emulate.
A historic financial institution whose founders, Henry Wells and William Fargo, made their fortune by servicing the California Gold Rush, providing services like delivering packages.
A large ride-sharing company used as an example of a 'gold mine' industry that younger entrepreneurs should consider servicing rather than trying to directly replicate.
A tech company located on Market Street in San Francisco, symbolizing the tech industry's growth and disruption.
A company founded by Chet Pipkin that makes peripherals and accessories for devices and computers, becoming a billion-dollar business by servicing the PC industry rather than competing directly to build PCs.
A large technology company whose Amazon Web Services (AWS) is an example of a successful business that services other industries, aligning with Guy Raz's entrepreneurial advice.
A razor brand mentioned as an example of a company that received significant funding, in contrast to Bevel's initial struggles.
A large platform for podcasts, mentioned in the context of a predicted future where such platforms might create 'walled gardens' for exclusive content, potentially impacting the podcast ecosystem.
An automated investing platform (robo-advising) that helps diversify portfolios, minimize fees, and lower taxes. Its Autopilot service monitors checking accounts for excess cash to move into savings or investment accounts.
A historic apparel company whose founder, Levi Strauss, made his fortune by selling canvas tents and later jeans to gold rushers in California.
A major tech company located on Market Street in San Francisco, representing the disruptive force of the tech world.
A razor brand mentioned as an example of a company that received significant funding, in contrast to Bevel's initial struggles.
A large technology company, mentioned as a platform that might create 'walled gardens' for podcast content in the future.
A large hospitality platform used as an example of a 'gold mine' industry that younger entrepreneurs should consider servicing around its core business.
Co-founder of Wells Fargo, who, alongside William Fargo, established a package delivery and courier service in California during the Gold Rush.
Actor mentioned by Guy Raz in reference to the controversial debate on the effectiveness of SSRIs, humorously noting his anti-psychiatry stance.
Founder of Belkin, who couldn't compete in the PC market but identified a need for peripherals to connect PCs and printers, building a billion-dollar business by servicing a larger industry.
An American professor who wrote about the hero's journey, a narrative arc present in many great stories, including the entrepreneurial stories Guy Raz seeks to tell.
Founder of Spanx, mentioned as an example of a successful entrepreneur who started out in sales, selling fax machines door-to-door, highlighting the learned skill of handling rejection.
Former US President, whose 'certitude' in his views is contrasted by Guy Raz's embrace of nuance and openness to changing his mind.
A Jesuit priest and psychotherapist whose writings, like 'Awareness' and 'Rediscovering Life,' offer helpful perspectives on managing depression by changing one's relationship to it.
A friend of Tim Ferriss who introduced him to Piqi Tea.
Former US President who considered the day of the Newtown shootings the hardest of his presidency. He also emphasized 'be kind' in his outgoing address.
Author of 'Darkness at Noon,' a book that shed light on the brutal nature of Stalinism and the perils of ideological purity.
Founder of Ring, who started his business called Doorbot, faced financial struggles, and eventually gained exposure on Shark Tank, transforming his life and business.
Author of 'Homage to Catalonia,' a complicated figure who fought in the Spanish Civil War and was disillusioned by the cynicism he witnessed, impacting Guy Raz's views on nuance and purity.
An important public intellectual who wrote extensively about George Orwell, elevating his status.
Co-founder of La Colombe Coffee, who, while trying to form the company, went through a depression and took a three-month survival trip to a remote island, which transformed his mind.
Creator and host of popular podcasts 'How I Built This,' 'Wisdom from the Top,' and 'The Rewind.' He is also the co-creator of 'TED Radio Hour' and 'Wow in the World.'
A past podcast guest who described Guy Raz's book 'How I Built This' as 'the mother of all entrepreneurship memoirs.'
An entrepreneur mentioned as someone who everyone takes calls from today, but likely didn't at the beginning of his journey, reflecting the common path of entrepreneurs.
The first producer and composer for 'How I Built This,' who wrote the theme song and later launched his own NPR show 'Throughline.'
A friend of Tim Ferriss who introduced him to Piqi Tea.
The former CEO of Starbucks, mentioned as an example of an entrepreneur who didn't get calls at the beginning of his journey, but later became a successful figure. He also constantly interrogated what Starbucks was doing to prevent complacency.
The leader of the Soviet Union whose regime was characterized by fascism, terror, and paranoia, as explored in 'Darkness at Noon.'
The late co-founder of Southwest Airlines, whose motto 'think small act small' illustrated his strategy for growth by avoiding complacency, a lesson Guy Raz applies to his own work.
A popular podcaster whose show could become exclusive to a platform like Spotify in the future, according to Guy Raz's prediction for the podcast industry.
Founder of Ghirardelli Chocolate Company, who initially sought gold but found success by selling chocolates and pastries to the gold rushers.
Founder of Chicken Salad Chick, who built a restaurant empire by selling chicken salad door-to-door, illustrating the entrepreneurial spirit of starting small.
A successful entrepreneur who started out as a salesperson, selling computer software door-to-door, illustrating the importance of rejection resilience in building a business.
Co-founder of Wells Fargo, who, alongside Henry Wells, established a package delivery and courier service in California during the Gold Rush.
A late artist whose album his son was obsessively listening to, deconstructing his lyrics and noting how he almost predicted his own death, highlighting the deep connections Guy Raz develops with his children.
An interview series with Bill Moyers where Joseph Campbell discusses the hero's journey.
A children's program co-created by Guy Raz and produced by his company, Tinkercast.
A news radio program on NPR, mentioned for its distinct theme music, contrasting with the desired propulsive sound of 'How I Built This.'
One of Guy Raz's popular podcasts on Spotify.
A film series that George Lucas created using Joseph Campbell's hero's journey framework.
A television show where Jamie Siminoff of Ring gained crucial exposure, helping to save his business from bankruptcy.
Another popular podcast hosted by Guy Raz, available on Spotify.
An example of an 'amazing show' that defies typical market expectations (infrequent, extremely long, multi-part episodes) but is incredibly successful, supporting the argument against solely market-driven content.
A popular podcast hosted by Guy Raz, focusing on the unexpected paths to success from inspiring entrepreneurs. The show aims to tell hero's journey stories in a cinematic way.
An NPR program cited as an example of a beautiful, brilliant, and important show that is expensive to make, highlighting the need for non-market-driven content.
An acclaimed podcast co-created by Guy Raz and TED, which saw a rise in popularity with the overall growth of podcasting.
A podcast credited with helping the podcasting industry take off, leading to a rise in audience for other shows like 'TED Radio Hour.'
An example of a 'magical and brilliant' but expensive-to-produce podcast that Guy Raz hopes will still have a place in the future podcasting landscape despite market pressures.
An NPR news program that Guy Raz hosted, which he found difficult due to the inability to deliver news in a way that aligned with his desire for empathy and understanding.
A video doorbell company founded by Jamie Siminoff, which faced early struggles but found success after a lucky break and a strong belief in its product.
A brand of fermented Pu-erh tea crystals that Tim Ferriss drinks daily. It claims to deliver polyphenols and probiotics, is triple toxin screened, and requires no brewing.
A company founded by Tristan Walker, which makes razors and grooming products specifically for men and women of color, demonstrating an unshakable belief to solve an unmet need.
A prominent skyscraper in San Francisco, symbolizing the immense wealth and tech presence in the city.
An early personal computer that, along with the Epson printer, lacked direct connectivity, creating an opportunity for Belkin to create peripherals.
A printer that, when paired with the IBM PC, required custom peripherals to connect, an unmet customer need that led to Belkin's creation.
A journalism fellowship at Harvard, which Guy Raz attended. This experience was transformational, exposing him to the case study method and re-awakening his perspective, leading to the idea for 'How I Built This.'
A statistical method where beliefs are updated as more evidence or information becomes available, which Guy Raz embraces as a way to constantly interrogate and evolve his understanding of the world.
A book by Anthony De Mello, which includes an anecdote about a monk's changed relationship with depression post-enlightenment, resonating with Guy Raz's experience.
A book by George Orwell that Guy Raz has read repeatedly. It chronicles Orwell's experiences fighting in the Spanish Civil War and his disillusionment with ideological purity.
Tim Ferriss's book, mentioned by Guy Raz as similar to 'How I Built This' in its function as a reference, guide, and source of reassurance for readers.
A book by Anthony De Mello, mentioned for its helpful content related to managing depression.
A book by Arthur Koestler, published in 1941, about the Soviet Stalinist trials of the 1930s, which Guy Raz reread and recommends for its insights into the dangers of pursuing ideological purity.
Amazon's cloud computing platform, cited as an example of a hugely successful business that operates as 'plumbing and infrastructure' for many other companies.
A platform that helps small businesses find and hire the right people by screening candidates with hard and soft skills and matching them with qualified members from its community of 690 million professionals.
A city described as complex due to its immense wealth and beautiful nature coexisting with areas of extreme deprivation, with many historic companies having roots in servicing the California Gold Rush.
The country that was the subject of Arthur Koestler's 'Darkness at Noon,' highlighting its transformation into a dictatorship and police state despite socialist ideals.
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