Key Moments

Samy Kamkar Interview (Full Episode) | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)

Tim FerrissTim Ferriss
Howto & Style10 min read166 min video
Oct 28, 2015|9,824 views|167|10
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TL;DR

Samy Kamkar discusses his journey from notorious hacker to security researcher, revealing exploits and advising on online dating strategies.

Key Insights

1

Samy Kamkar, a renowned computer hacker, is known for creating the MySpace 'Samy' worm and other exploits like SkyJack and Evercookie, demonstrating critical security vulnerabilities.

2

His hacking journey started at age nine after a computer crash, leading to an interest in understanding system vulnerabilities and reverse engineering.

3

Kamkar shares techniques for hacking car keys and understanding wireless frequencies, highlighting the often-overlooked insecurities in everyday devices, even luxury vehicles.

4

He advocates for public disclosure of vulnerabilities (like Evercookie), arguing that transparency drives necessary security improvements from companies and browser vendors.

5

Kamkar applies a systematic, data-driven approach (A/B testing, competitive analysis) to online dating, optimizing profile pictures and communication strategies for better results.

6

Despite his run-in with the Secret Service after the MySpace worm, his three-year ban from computers surprisingly broadened his life experiences beyond technology, fostering social skills.

INTRODUCTION TO SAMY KAMKAR: HACKER, WHISTLEBLOWER, AND ENTREPRENEUR

Samy Kamkar is introduced as one of the most innovative and notorious computer hackers in the United States, alongside being a well-known whistleblower and entrepreneur. Tim Ferriss highlights Kamkar's diverse exploits, including the infamous MySpace worm dubbed 'Samy,' which led to a Secret Service raid and a three-year ban from computers. Beyond this, Kamkar developed SkyJack, a custom drone capable of hacking other nearby drones, and Evercookie, a tenacious tracking cookie that featured in NSA documents. His research also exposed illicit mobile phone tracking by major tech companies like Apple and Google, prompting class-action lawsuits and Congressional privacy hearings. Ferriss emphasizes Kamkar's controversial yet thought-provoking work, setting the stage for a deep dive into his methodologies and insights.

REAL-WORLD HACKING DEMONSTRATIONS AND IMPLICATIONS

Kamkar showcases one of his custom devices, a microcontroller necklace he calls 'USB Driveby.' When plugged into a computer, this discreet device can take full control within two seconds, capable of rerouting all internet traffic through Kamkar's server and bypassing firewalls by simulating user acceptance. He explains that his intention in releasing such tools open-source is not malicious but to highlight critical, long-standing vulnerabilities in everyday systems like USB. This concept is reinforced by a former intelligence officer's anecdote about malicious USB drives branded with company logos being readily picked up and used by employees, illustrating a widespread lack of security awareness despite apparent threats. Kamkar also discusses his work with modifying a discontinued Mattel 'I AM Me' toy, transforming it into a powerful radio frequency device capable of intercepting and replaying signals from luxury car remotes. This exploit allows him to unlock and start cars without a key, exposing the surprising fragility of high-end vehicle security systems, often more vulnerable than older, simpler models. He details the process of identifying frequency bands through FCC IDs, using devices to 'listen in' on car key signals, and recognizing rolling codes that change with each use. A key vulnerability he identifies involves jamming a car’s signal while the owner attempts to lock it, capturing a valid rolling code for later use.

THE GENESIS OF A HACKER: FROM X-FILES TO COUNTER-STRIKE

Kamkar's fascination with computers began at age nine when, after receiving his first computer and internet access, he was 'nuked' offline by a hacker in an X-Files chat room. This experience, though terrifying at the time, ignited his curiosity: 'That was the coolest thing ever. How do I do that?' This led him to explore denial-of-service (DoS) attacks and reverse engineer programs like 'WinNuke,' eventually learning to write his own software. His gaming experience also played a crucial role. While playing Counter-Strike at 14, Kamkar realized that positional audio cues from enemy footsteps indicated underlying data traffic. He then developed cheat software that enabled him to see enemies through walls and gain an unfair advantage. This cat-and-mouse game against 'PunkBuster' (anti-cheat software) taught him invaluable lessons in reverse engineering and problem-solving, pushing him to develop advanced skills in overcoming adversarial systems.

THE PHILOSOPHY OF HACKING: INPUTS AND OUTPUTS

Kamkar shares his universal problem-solving approach: analyzing inputs and outputs. He applies this framework to everything from software to physical systems like car locks. For instance, when trying to start a car without a key, he examines how a car normally starts—by pressing a button that communicates wirelessly with the key. By understanding the standard inputs (wireless signals) and desired outputs (car starting), he then looks for alternative, non-obvious inputs that could yield the same result. This method extends to unconventional approaches, such as physically freezing computer memory with nitrogen to extract data, demonstrating a willingness to explore all possible environmental and physical inputs. He emphasizes the importance of going beyond readily available inputs to consider esoteric conditions, reflecting a comprehensive and often unorthodox mindset essential for discovering vulnerabilities.

THE DUALITY OF EXPLOIT DISCLOSURE: PUBLIC AWARENESS VERSUS MALICIOUS USE

Addressing concerns about making exploits public, Kamkar recounts his experience with 'Evercookie,' a super-persistent tracking cookie he developed. Initially, attempts to disclose vulnerabilities to companies privately, or through academic blogs, yielded little change. It was only when he released Evercookie publicly and open-source, demonstrating its pervasive tracking capabilities across browsers, that major browser vendors were compelled to act. This led to a significant shift: previously segregated privacy settings became centralized into a single 'privacy' control panel, allowing users to delete all tracking data with one click. Kamkar argues that this public exposure, while potentially misused for a short period, ultimately forced widespread improvement in user privacy that years of quiet discussion never achieved. He believes that change often requires a more impactful approach than official channels alone, creating public pressure that ultimately benefits everyone by driving manufacturers to address security flaws.

SCIENTIFIC AB TESTING IN ONLINE DATING

Kamkar views online dating as an engineering problem, applying scientific methods like A/B and multivariate testing to optimize his success. Frustrated by a lack of responses on dating sites like OkCupid, he developed a script to automatically cycle through different profile pictures and track interaction rates. He discovered that his 'best' photos performed poorly, while a picture of him with a cat yielded significantly more clicks—highlighting the disparity between self-perception and actual appeal. To gain further insight, he created a fake female profile, observing the influx of nearly 100 messages daily. This experiment revealed critical flaws in typical male messaging strategies: repetitive, generic, or offesive subject lines often led to no engagement. Kamkar learned to prioritize unique and engaging subject lines. For non-technical users, he recommends using services like 'My Best Face' on OkCupid to A/B test photos. He also suggests creating a fake profile in another state to observe successful messaging patterns without having to engage. For communication, he advises quickly transitioning from messaging to chat, sharing interesting true stories (like his Urban Escape and Evasion class), and avoiding common questions. He stresses the importance of making the leap to an in-person, low-commitment coffee date quickly, citing George Costanza’s 'leave at the height' strategy to maintain interest.

AUTOMATING ONLINE DATING: TOOLS AND STRATEGIES FOR THE NON-TECHNICAL

For those seeking to automate their online dating efforts without technical expertise, Kamkar suggests two main avenues. First, he recommends utilizing the premium analytical services offered by dating platforms like OkCupid or Match.com, which provide data on read rates, open rates, and other engagement metrics to refine profiles and messages. Consistently recording this data in a spreadsheet is crucial for learning what works. Second, if a user wants to hire someone to write scripts (e.g., for automated swiping or messaging on platforms like Tinder), Kamkar advises seeking freelancers skilled in 'web crawlers' and 'backend web software' development. He suggests a vetting process: asking candidates to write a non-valuable script (e.g., extracting random data from a news website) as a demonstration of their skills without providing free labor with an ROI. Kamkar notes that while automating initial engagement (like Tinder swipes) can cast a wide net, the real value comes from human interaction in later stages. He envisions a bot that could handle initial communication, texting him for human intervention when a genuine connection is made. He also touches on using computer vision algorithms for platforms like Tinder to automate desirability assessments, though practical application remains complex due to limited profile descriptions.

THE MYSPACE WORM: A PRANK GONE VIRAL

At 19, while co-founding a VoIP company, Kamkar experimented with MySpace, then the internet's most popular site. Frustrated by photo limits and unable to change his relationship status to 'in a hot relationship,' he discovered a JavaScript vulnerability. This exploit allowed him to inject code that would make anyone visiting his profile add him as a friend and append 'Samy is my hero' to their hero section. Crucially, the code would also copy itself to the visitor's profile, turning it into a self-replicating worm. What he intended as a small prank for a few friends quickly spiraled out of control, growing exponentially. Within hours, thousands, then hundreds of thousands, and eventually over a million profiles were infected, slowing MySpace to a crawl and eventually taking the entire site offline. Kamkar's attempts to stop it were futile; deleting his profile only locked it in a 24-hour pending status, perpetuating the spread. The incident caught the attention of federal authorities. Six months later, he was confronted by the Secret Service, LAPD, and the District Attorney's office. His apartment was raided, and all his personal devices were confiscated. Simultaneously, agents descended upon his company, threatening to take down critical servers. Thanks to his CEO, only Kamkar's personal work devices were seized, narrowly avoiding the collapse of his business. The legal battle resulted in a plea agreement: three years of probation, 720 hours of community service (which became 800), and a ban from touching computers for three years.

RE-ENTRY AND NEW PERSPECTIVES AFTER THE BAN

Kamkar's three-year ban from computers, a severe penalty for a hacker, coincided with a pivotal moment in technology: the rise of Web 2.0 (Ajax, exemplified by Google Maps) and the advent of the iPhone. While initially a devastating disruption, the forced hiatus ironically broadened his horizons. Deprived of his primary passion, he was compelled to engage with the physical world, developing social skills, making friends, discovering fitness, and experiencing activities outside the digital realm. Upon his return at age 22-23, he found that he had missed surprisingly few major technological shifts, with the iPhone's introduction being the most significant development. His earlier worm had even leveraged Ajax, demonstrating an intuitive grasp of the very technologies that would define the next era. This period, though accidental, transformed him from an introverted nerd into a more well-rounded individual, enhancing his ability to communicate and connect with people—a skill he cherishes alongside his technical prowess.

INFLUENCES, ETHICS, AND THE FUTURE OF SECURITY

Kamkar reflects on key influences, crediting the internet itself for much of his self-taught knowledge. Beyond technology, Stan, a mentor he met through his early cheating software, profoundly impacted his understanding of business, negotiation, and risk-taking. In terms of ethics, Kamkar's primary rule is 'do no intentional harm.' While acknowledging that his exploits have had unintended consequences, his goal is always to expose vulnerabilities for the sake of improving security, not causing malicious damage. He differentiates between 'white hats' (ethical hackers), 'black hats' (malicious hackers, often driven by financial gain), and 'script kiddies' (those using pre-made tools without deep understanding). He critiques the 'ignorance is bliss' mindset that allows black hats to rationalize their actions, particularly when operating in regions with lax cybercrime laws. He cautions against widespread use of password managers like LastPass, seeing them as high-value targets for attackers. Instead, he advocates for long, easy-to-remember passphrases (e.g., song lyrics) over short, complex ones. He also recommends using physical covers for laptop cameras and discusses 'TrueCrypt,' an open-source encryption software known for its plausible deniability feature, allowing users to have multiple passwords that unlock the same encrypted drive, making it impossible to prove if a 'decoy' password was given up. He concludes by emphasizing continuous learning and having fun. Kamkar maintains his website samy.pl and Twitter (@SamyKamkar), and YouTube (s4myk) channels, where he shares open-source tools, detailed write-ups, and videos to educate the public on hacking, coding, and self-protection.

Samy Kamkar's Digital Security & Online Dating Advice

Practical takeaways from this episode

Do This

Use password managers (like LastPass or 1Password) if you tend to use the same password everywhere, but be aware of the inherent risks of centralizing credentials.
Create long, easy-to-remember passwords, often based on song lyrics, rather than short, complex ones.
Place a physical cover (like a Post-it Note or masking tape) over your laptop camera to prevent unauthorized viewing.
For online dating, use tools like OKCupid's 'MyBestFace' to get objective feedback on your profile photos.
A/B test different subject lines for dating messages, aiming for something unique and attention-grabbing.
During online chats, transition quickly from small talk to an interesting, legitimate story about your life to engage the other person.
End online dating chats at the height of interest, suggesting a quick, low-commitment, real-life meeting like coffee.
When hiring a web crawler specialist, ask for a test project that is not valuable to you, to assess their competency without providing free services.
For deep privacy, consider disk encryption software like TrueCrypt for its plausible deniability feature (using two passwords for a hidden drive).
When traveling to environments with high surveillance, such as China, consider bringing a 'blank' Netbook to protect sensitive data.

Avoid This

Don't rely solely on official channels to report security vulnerabilities, as they may not lead to impactful changes.
Don't use the same password for every website, as it creates a single point of failure.
Don't drag out online dating conversations; aim to meet in person quickly to avoid wasting time.
Don't just say 'hello' or use generic subject lines in online dating; be creative and stand out.
Don't make initial dating meetings long or expensive (e.g., dinners); opt for quick, low-pressure options like coffee.
Don't engage in malicious hacking for financial gain, as it leads to severe legal repercussions.
Don't become complacent about security measures in expensive products (e.g., luxury cars), as they can often be the most vulnerable.
Don't rely on ignorance for bliss regarding security vulnerabilities; understanding exposed flaws helps in protection.

Common Questions

Samy's USB Drive-By is a microcontroller worn as a necklace. When plugged into a computer, it can take it over within two seconds by simulating keyboard inputs to open terminals, modify network settings, and redirect internet traffic through Samy's computer, all while evading firewalls. He released it open source to demonstrate USB security flaws.

Topics

Mentioned in this video

People
Samy Kamkar

A notorious computer hacker, whistleblower, and entrepreneur known for creating the MySpace worm 'Samy,' Skyjack, and Evercookie. He was prevented from touching computers for three years after legal action.

Brad Pitt

An actor whose photo was jokingly mentioned as being Samy's most attractive photo when testing dating profile pictures.

Chris Lyman

The CEO and co-founder of Samy Kamkar's Voice-over-IP company Finality, who mentored Samy and managed to prevent Secret Service agents from seizing the company's server room during the raid.

Richard Branson

An entrepreneur admired by Samy Kamkar for his approach to life, having fun, and not conforming to expectations of success.

Edward Snowden

A former NSA contractor who leaked classified information, revealing documents that included mention of Evercookie.

Neil Strauss

Author of 'The Game,' who was involved in the online dating experiments on 'The Tim Ferriss Experiment.'

Rocky Marciano

A boxer whose strategic approach of retiring at the peak of his career was likened to leaving a conversation at its height.

Michael Ossmann

A hacker who discovered that the Mattel I'm Me's wireless chip is powerful, and built a spectrum analyzer for working with radio frequencies.

Al Gore

Jokingly credited by Samy Kamkar as the creator of the internet due to a common misconception.

Jason Statham

An actor whose photo, depicting him in a 'Scrooge McDuck backstroke in a pool of money surrounded by penguins,' was humorously mentioned as a successful dating profile picture.

Rupert Murdoch

The head of Fox, jokingly referred to as 'Mr. Murdoch,' who Samy wondered if he was happy about the MySpace worm incident.

Kevin Mitnick

A well-known hacker, author of 'The Art of Deception,' whom Samy Kamkar has always followed.

Robert Cialdini

Author of 'Influence,' a book that provided a systematic and analytical approach to human influence and persuasion, impactful for Samy Kamkar.

Pablos Holman

A hacker and member of the Shmoo Group, known for inventing devices that can wirelessly capture credit card information from wallets, admired by Samy for his social skills.

Dan Kaminsky

A very smart security researcher who found huge vulnerabilities in the internet, including the 'Kaminsky bug,' which could control any domain name.

Software & Apps
Skyjack

A custom drone created by Samy Kamkar that can hack into other nearby Parrot drones to create a controllable swarm.

USB Drive-By

A microcontroller that Samy Kamkar wears around his neck, programmed to take over any computer it's plugged into within two seconds by simulating keyboard inputs and redirecting network traffic. It's released as open source to demonstrate security flaws.

OS X

An operating system mentioned in the context of keyboard input and system menus.

Google Authenticator

A two-factor authentication app used as an analogy for rolling codes in car key security.

iTunes

A platform where 'The Tim Ferriss Experiment' was the number one TV season.

Windows

An operating system mentioned in the context of keyboard input and kernel vulnerabilities.

Evercookie

A persistent tracking cookie created by Samy Kamkar that appeared in top-secret NSA documents revealed by Edward Snowden. It installs unique identifiers in multiple places on a computer, making it nearly impossible to delete, to demonstrate privacy flaws.

Android

Google's mobile operating system, whose phones were found to be illicitly transmitting GPS and Wi-Fi information.

Craigslist

An online classifieds site mentioned as a place to find freelance programmers for web crawler development.

WikiHow

A how-to website where Samy looked up instructions on how to drive a stick shift.

MyBestFace

A feature on OKCupid that allows users to upload photos and have them rated by others, helping users identify their most attractive profile pictures.

Kaminsky Bug

A significant vulnerability found by Dan Kaminsky that allowed control of any domain name on the internet.

Aisun

Another password manager, similar to LastPass and 1Password, mentioned in the context of improving password security.

FaceTime

Apple's video calling software, mentioned in the context of needing to temporarily remove a camera cover for use.

OkCupid

An online dating site Samy Kamkar used to apply AB testing and other scientific methods to improve his dating prospects.

MAG Stripe Writer

A device used to produce credit cards by writing magnetic stripe data, mentioned as a tool for monetizing stolen credit card information.

Skype

A video calling software mentioned in the context of needing to temporarily remove a camera cover for use.

TrueCrypt

An open-source disk encryption software, developed anonymously, that allows users to encrypt hard drives or folders and features plausible deniability with two passwords. Its website recently claimed it was insecure, leading to much speculation.

Emulator

A device or software used by Infected Mushroom, allowing them to interact with massive projected screens for DJing.

Google Maps

A mapping software that pioneered smooth scrolling without page refreshes, which inspired Samy's use of Ajax in his MySpace worm.

MapQuest

An early online mapping service characterized by page refreshes for every navigation action, contrasted with the seamless experience of Google Maps.

AuthNet

A payment gateway, mentioned as an example of a credit card processor hackers might penetrate.

1Password

A password manager service, which Samy views as a high-value target for hackers due to it storing all passwords in one place.

Audiomolly.com

An EDM (electronic dance music) blog where Samy Kamkar finds the latest, high-quality electronic music for his coding zone.

Companies
Google

The tech company whose Android phones were found to be illicitly transmitting GPS and Wi-Fi information. Also mentioned in the context of Google Maps functionality.

Match.com

An online dating service mentioned as an alternative to OKCupid, where users can pay for premium services to access analytics.

MySpace

A social networking website that was the number one site on the internet in 2005, which Samy Kamkar accidentally brought down with his self-replicating worm.

eBay

An online marketplace where the discontinued Mattel I'm Me toy can be purchased cheaply for hacking purposes.

Elance

An online platform for freelancers mentioned as a place to find programmers to develop web crawlers for dating projects.

Parrot

A company that produces drones, some of which were vulnerable to Samy Kamkar's Skyjack drone.

Apple

The tech company behind the iPhone, which was found to be illicitly transmitting GPS and Wi-Fi information to parent companies.

Vessel

A content distribution site mentioned as a place to find bonus footage from the episode with Samy.

Facebook

A social media company mentioned hypothetically as a target for malicious USB drive drops.

YouTube

A video sharing platform where Samy found an instructional video on how to exit his Lotus car gracefully.

Ralphs

A supermarket chain where Samy Kamkar unsuccessfully tried to apply for a job.

Stripe

A payment processing company mentioned as a modern example of a 'Gateway' through which credit card transactions flow.

LastPass

A password manager service, which Samy views as a high-value target for hackers due to it storing all passwords in one place, but still better than using the same password everywhere.

Starbucks

A coffee company where Samy Kamkar unsuccessfully tried to apply for a job when his mom lost hers.

Tinder

A dating app mentioned as a platform where users could potentially automate swiping and initial communication using bots and computer vision algorithms.

Cadillac

A car brand whose keys were used as an example of a powerful transmitter that can remotely jam other car lock signals.

Western Union

A money transfer service mentioned as being prevalent in Romania, facilitating financial transactions for black hat hackers.

PayPal

A payment processing company mentioned as a modern example of a 'Gateway' through which credit card transactions flow.

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