What is the crucial distinction to remember about breath-holding and the urge to breathe?

It's vital to remember that carbon dioxide buildup, not oxygen deprivation, is what triggers the urge to breathe. Ignoring this distinction, especially in water, can lead to shallow water blackout.

How did Josh Waitzkin's near-death experience change his perspective on life?

He now lives with an elevated and consistent sense of gratitude, beauty, and love, with a heightened presence to the exquisite little ripples of beauty in everyday life. He also rethought his approach to risk, especially as a father.

How does Josh Waitzkin describe and cultivate a 'flow state'?

For Josh, flow is born from deep love for an activity, combined with tremendous competitive intensity and stretching oneself to the limit. He cultivates it by increasing somatic awareness through meditation, allowing him to sense subtle physiological changes and maintain presence.

Why is tactile sensitivity important in mental disciplines like chess or investing?

Josh argues that tactile awareness, or somatic introspection, allows individuals to sense danger or opportunity intuitively long before conscious recognition. This stillness of internal waters helps detect subtle changes, crystallize complex ideas, or recognize the onset of cognitive biases.

How does Josh help elite performers develop intuition and somatic awareness?

He focuses on 'unlearning' and releasing obstructions to return to a natural state. Training progresses from stress/recovery interval training, to biofeedback (like HeartMath for HRV), and then layered meditation practices, often starting with Headspace at night.

How does Josh Waitzkin incorporate chaos into his and his son's training?

From a young age, Josh deliberately created chaos in his training (e.g., messy card hands, playing chess with loud music) to learn to be at peace and organize thoughts within it. With his son Jack, he reframe 'bad weather' as beautiful and encourages embracing cold discomfort as a meditation, fostering an internal locus of control.

What is the difference between a fixed mindset and a growth mindset, according to Carol Dweck's work?

A fixed mindset assumes ingrained ability (e.g., 'I am smart'), leading to brittleness and fear of failure. A growth mindset understands mastery through incremental effort and practice, focusing on the process of learning rather than inherent traits.

How does Josh Waitzkin train investors to overcome external pressures and foster an internal orientation?

He emphasizes minimizing external inputs like constant P&L checking or social media validation. The goal is to build a proactive, inside-out approach, rather than a reactive one susceptible to external perceptions, allowing for clearer intuition and decision-making.

What is the 'firewalking process' and how can it steepen the learning curve?

It's Josh's term for cultivating the ability to learn from others' experiences with the same physiological intensity as one's own. By intensely visualizing and emotionally 'burning in' lessons from others' errors or market cycles, individuals can gain wisdom without personally enduring the pain.

How does Josh Waitzkin apply the 'principle of scarcity' to creative and learning processes?

Scarcity involves cutting down resources to focus on the most essential elements, avoiding dilution of quality. In the creative process, it means regularly asking 'what is the most important question?' to guide focused thinking and prevent overwhelm.

What is Josh Waitzkin's daily journaling routine and its benefits?

He journals in the morning after meditation and a cold/hot shower, brainstorming on the 'most important question' posed the previous day. He also notes insights throughout the day and after client sessions, tagging everything thematically in Evernote to easily recall resources and overcome recency bias.

What is 'thematic interconnectedness' and how does it relate to education?

It's the ability to find hidden harmonies and apply principles across seemingly disparate areas of life and disciplines, learning the macro from the micro. In education, it helps children break down subject matter walls, fostering a love for learning and enhancing creativity.

How can educators implement thematic interconnectedness in schools?

Through programs like The Art of Learning Project, schools can have teachers in different subject matters (e.g., math, English, sports) weave the same learning principles into their curricula simultaneously. This allows children to experience how a single principle manifests across diverse disciplines.

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Josh Waitzkin Returns Interview (Full Episode) | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)

Tim Ferriss

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Apr 14, 2016|38,172 views|465|20

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TL;DR

Josh Waitzkin on deep learning, flow states, risk, and nurturing human potential.

Key Insights

Cultivate a proactive, internal locus of control rather than being reactive to external pressures.

Embrace 'funk'—your unique eccentricities—as a foundation for mastery and self-expression.

Develop somatic awareness and sensitivity to 'inner ripples' for intuition and decision-making.

Prioritize consistent, 'little things' training over sporadic, intense efforts for long-term growth.

The 'firewalking process' involves learning from others' experiences with the same physiological intensity as one's own.

Thematic interconnectedness is crucial for education, helping children see how principles manifest across disciplines.

THE VALUE OF INTERNAL ORIENTATION AND PROACTIVE LIVING

Josh Waitzkin emphasizes the importance of developing an internal locus of control, moving from a reactive to a proactive way of life. This involves cultivating an awareness of inner states rather than constantly reacting to external pressures, social expectations, or immediate feedback loops like P&L reports. This internal orientation is key for artists, performers, investors, and indeed anyone seeking to express their authentic self and make potent decisions, especially when navigating complex environments or high-stakes situations.

EMBRACING ECCENTRICITY AND THE 'FUNK' FOR GROWTH

Waitzkin introduces the concept of 'embracing your funk'—acknowledging and integrating one's unique eccentricities and perceived 'madness' with their genius. This non-conformist approach is fundamental to world-class performance, as it allows individuals to build training programs and life strategies that align with their core being, rather than forcing themselves into a mold. This acceptance of individuality is crucial for unobstructed self-expression and unique contributions in any field.

CULTIVATING SOMATIC SENSITIVITY AND INTUITION THROUGH PRACTICE

A central theme is the development of somatic awareness, or 'feeling the inner ripples' of one's experience. This heightened sensitivity allows for powerful intuition, enabling individuals, whether chess players or investors, to sense danger or opportunity before consciously identifying it. Practices like mindfulness, biofeedback, and interval training are discussed as methods to cultivate this capacity. This internal attunement is vital for recognizing cognitive biases and making decisions aligned with deeper awareness.

THE 'LITTLE THINGS' AND THE POWER OF CONSISTENT PRACTICE

Waitzkin stresses that mastery is built through consistent engagement with the 'little things'—the foundational habits and daily practices—rather than relying on sporadic, grand efforts. This principle, exemplified by Marcelo Garcia's approach to Brazilian jiu-jitsu, highlights that how one handles small details reflects their capacity in larger moments. For educators and parents, it means embodying principles rather than just teaching them, and for athletes, it means training with the same intensity daily as if preparing for a championship.

LEARNING FROM OTHERS AND THE FIREWALKING PROCESS

Waitzkin proposes the 'firewalking process' as a method to learn from others' experiences with the same physiological intensity as personal experience. This involves deeply engaging with the stories and struggles of others, creating an internalized understanding that impacts behavior. This is contrasted with purely intellectual knowledge, emphasizing the need for an adrenalized, embodied response to truly internalize lessons, particularly relevant for investors navigating market cycles or athletes learning from peers.

THEMATIC INTERCONNECTEDNESS IN EDUCATION AND LIFE

A significant focus is placed on thematic interconnectedness, particularly in education, to break down siloed thinking. Waitzkin's nonprofit, The Art of Learning Project, works with schools to illustrate how core principles manifest across diverse disciplines—from math and history to sports. This approach helps children see the unity in learning, fosters creativity, and encourages them to apply lessons from one area of life to others, nurturing a love for learning and a deeper understanding of the world.

PARENTING THROUGH PRESENCE AND AGENCY

Waitzkin shares insights from his parenting journey, emphasizing the importance of attunement, presence, and fostering a sense of agency in children. By deeply listening to his son and allowing him to actively participate in their lives, Waitzkin aims to cultivate an internal locus of control and a love for learning. Examples include framing challenging weather positively and engaging in playful explorations of discomfort, demonstrating how to build resilience and an inner orientation from an early age.

THE DANGER OF WATER DURING BREATH-HOLD TRAINING

Waitzkin recounts a near-death experience resulting from practicing Wim Hof Method breath-holding in water, a significant technical error he warns others against. He explains that the urge to breathe is primarily driven by CO2 buildup, not oxygen deprivation. This incident underscores the critical importance of safety protocols and respecting the inherent risks associated with such powerful physiological practices, especially in aquatic environments.

THE PRINCIPLE OF SCARCITY IN CREATIVITY AND HABIT FORMATION

The discussion delves into the principle of scarcity, which involves intentionally limiting resources or inputs to enhance focus and potency. In habit creation, this means adopting one or two habits at a time rather than overwhelming oneself. In the creative process, it's about rigorously identifying and focusing on the most essential question, rather than just grinding through work. This disciplined approach, exemplified by limiting inputs or focusing daily on the most potent question, is key to efficient and powerful progress.

APPLYING LESSONS FROM SURFING TO INVESTING AND BEYOND

Waitzkin shares the concept of 'swapping boards' from a stand-up paddle surfing retreat, where trying different equipment revealed new lines and perspectives on waves. This metaphor is applied to investing, suggesting that teams could benefit from 'swapping' experienced members or analysts to gain beginner's mind and fresh insights. This thematic interconnectedness encourages breaking down disciplinary boundaries and fostering collaborative learning by seeing the world through different lenses.

THE BALANCE BETWEEN CONTROL AND ALLOWING THE 'FLOW'

Waitzkin discusses the delicate balance between control and allowing for flow, a concept particularly relevant in competitive environments like chess or martial arts. While controlling the game can be a strategy, Waitzkin's approach often involved creating chaos to find hidden harmonies and operate optimally within it. This ability to adapt and find clarity amidst complexity is a hallmark of mastery, reflecting a deeper understanding of dynamic systems.

THE ESSENCE OF QUALITY IN TRAINING AND IN LIFE

Quality is presented not just as an outcome but as a fundamental principle woven into the fabric of daily practice. In training, this means attending to the details—correctly tying a gi, running a full warm-up circle, or refining technique with precision. This meticulous attention to detail, exemplified by Marcelo Garcia, cultivates a high standard that permeates all aspects of life. 'How you do anything is how you do everything' encapsulates this philosophy.

THE ROLE OF STOICISM IN NAVIGATING PUBLIC LIFE

Waitzkin and Ferriss touch upon Stoicism as a tool for mitigating the risks and anxieties of a public-facing life. The idea of intentionally seeking mild embarrassment or discomfort, as exemplified by Cato the Younger's practices, helps build resilience by desensitizing oneself to criticism. This practice of not protecting a fixed identity or reputation allows for greater freedom in expression and a more authentic engagement with the world.

THE IMPORTANCE OF EMPTY SPACE AND SLACK IN CREATIVITY AND LEARNING

Waitzkin highlights the critical role of 'empty space' or 'slack' in his life and work. This deliberate cultivation of unstructured time allows for creative process, deep reflection, and receptive attunement to others. By not over-scheduling or driving for constant efficiency, one preserves the internal bandwidth necessary for profound insight and meaningful connection, especially when operating at the highest levels of performance or coaching.

Mentioned in This Episode

●Products

●Software & Apps

●Companies

●Organizations

●Books

●Concepts

●People Referenced

Josh Waitzkin's Principles for High Performance & Parenting

Practical takeaways from this episode

Do This

Cultivate deep internal presence and somatic awareness through mindfulness and meditation.

Embrace chaos and find flow in challenging situations, rather than seeking control.

Train proactively, building a life that moves from the inside out, rather than reactively.

Foster an internal locus of control and reframe discomfort (e.g., cold weather, tickling) as an opportunity for growth.

Encourage a growth mindset by praising effort and process, not fixed ability.

Systematically create 'slack' or empty space in your life for creative process and deep attunement.

Apply the principle of scarcity in learning and creative work, focusing on what's most essential.

End each day by asking 'the most important question' to engage the unconscious mind for creative breakthroughs.

Journal consistently, using thematic tagging, to review ideas without recency bias and track insights.

Seek out experiences that force a 'beginner's mind' and encourage thematic interconnectedness in learning.

Embody the principles you want to teach, especially in parenting and education (walk the talk).

Cultivate empathy and compassion, and foster secure attachment in children through deep presence.

Avoid This

Over-steer or over-calibrate responses based on a single intense experience.

Rely on external conditions to be perfect to engage in activities or learning.

Allow distractions (e.g., phone addiction, social media) to constantly bombard your attention and create a reactive state.

Check profit and loss (P&L) statements excessively, leading to constant adrenal hits.

Protect your ego or a fixed identity, especially in competitive or learning environments.

Scale operations or activities at the expense of diluting quality.

Force children into a rigid mold; instead, understand them deeply and help them find unobstructed self-expression.

Neglect presence with a second child or in later stages of a skill, assuming competence is permanent.

Practice breath-hold methods like Wim Hof in or near water, as it can lead to severe injury or death.

Common Questions

Josh experienced a shallow water blackout while doing Wim Hof breath holds underwater at the NYU pool. He lost consciousness for 3 minutes and was pulled from the bottom of the pool, luckily without taking water into his lungs. Doctors said his extensive training saved his life.

Topics

Risk Management Mental Health & Psychology Human Performance Learning & Education Mindset & Self-Improvement Growth Mindset Creative Process Cognitive Biases Flow States Parenting Philosophy Somatic Awareness Meditation Techniques Intuition Development Thematic Learning

Mentioned in this video

Companies

Instagram

A social media platform Josh Waitzkin avoids to prevent external distractions.

Amazon

An e-commerce giant, mentioned in the context of authors tracking book sales.

Twitter

A social media platform Josh Waitzkin avoids to prevent external distractions.

Wealthfront

A disruptive automated investing service that combines technology and expert investment strategies, managing over $2.5 billion in assets.

MeUndies

A sponsor of the podcast, offering comfortable underwear and lounge pants made of micro modal.

Microsoft

A multinational technology corporation, co-founded by Bill Gates, used as an example of a company that scaled.

Blue Zone SUP

Eric Enerson's stand-up paddle surfing business.

Facebook

A social media platform where Josh Waitzkin avoids having an account to prevent external distractions, and where Tim Ferriss does 'drunk Q&As'.

Alibaba

A Chinese multinational technology company specializing in e-commerce, retail, Internet, and technology, co-founded by Jack Ma.

Concepts

Wim Hof Method

A method involving breathing exercises, cold exposure, and commitment to improve physical and mental health. Josh experienced a shallow water blackout while practicing it in water.

Lucid Dreaming

The experience of being aware that one is dreaming and sometimes being able to control the dream narrative.

Tibetan dream yoga

An ancient Tibetan Buddhist practice that involves maintaining conscious awareness during sleep and dreams.

Sunk Cost Fallacy

A cognitive bias where people continue investing in a failing project because of resources already committed.

Stoicism

An ancient Greek philosophy that emphasizes virtue, reason, and peace of mind through self-control and detachment from external events, used by Tim Ferriss to mitigate risks of public life.

East Asian Philosophy

A broad category of philosophical traditions originating from East Asia, which Josh Waitzkin began studying 20 years ago and influences his approach to lucid dreaming.

Cartesian Dualism

The philosophical idea that the mind and body are distinct substances, which Josh Waitzkin argues against in the context of intuition and somatic awareness.

Cognitive Bias

Systematic error in thinking that affects the decisions and judgments that people make, which Josh Waitzkin emphasizes should be integrated into intuitive processes, not merely checked off a list.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

A martial art, combat sport, and self-defense system focusing on grappling and ground fighting, which Josh Waitzkin is a black belt in.

Pavlovian influence

A term used to describe market behaviors learned from experiencing a prolonged bull market, where pleasure is associated with aggressive investing and pain with caution.

Flow State

A mental state in which a person performing an activity is fully immersed in a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and enjoyment in the process of the activity.

Organizations

The Art of Learning Project

Josh Waitzkin's non-profit foundation focused on education, particularly systematic training in creativity through thematic interconnectedness.

JW Foundation

Josh Waitzkin's non-profit foundation that houses The Art of Learning Project.

Books

Searching for Bobby Fischer

A book and movie based on Josh Waitzkin's early life as a chess prodigy.

The Art of Learning

Josh Waitzkin's book on learning strategies, which Tim Ferriss helped produce the audiobook for.

Mindset: The New Psychology of Success

Carol Dweck's book, which elaborates on the concepts of fixed and growth mindsets.

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

A philosophical novel by Robert M. Pirsig, mentioned by Josh Waitzkin as one of his favorite books.

Dreaming Yourself Awake

A book recommended by a friend that Josh Waitzkin explored, discussing lucid dreaming by fusing East Asian philosophy with Western science.

Locations

Costa Rica

A country in Central America where Tim Ferriss and Josh Waitzkin have stand-up paddle surfing adventures and experienced food poisoning.

Martha's Vineyard

An island south of Cape Cod, Massachusetts, where Josh Waitzkin taught his son 'go around' lessons.

Washington Square Park

A park in Greenwich Village, New York City, where Josh Waitzkin learned to play battle chess with hustlers, influencing his competitive style.

NYU pool

The pool at New York University where Josh Waitzkin experienced a shallow water blackout due to improper use of the Wim Hof method.

Silicon Valley

A region in California known for innovation and high-tech companies, where the concept of 'scaling' is often romanticized.

Montana

A U.S. state where Tim Ferriss bought 'Dr. Seuss-like striped nonsense gloves' as a personal experiment in defying social norms.

People

Cato the Younger

A Roman politician and philosopher of the Stoic school, mentioned by Tim Ferriss as 'the perfect Stoic'.

Bill Gates

Co-founder of Microsoft, quoted by Tim Ferriss on the ineffectiveness of adding people to inefficient processes.

Josh Waitzkin

A chess prodigy, martial artist (Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt under Marcelo Garcia, Tai Chi Push Hands world champion), author, and coach for top performers, who was the subject of the book and movie Searching for Bobby Fischer.

Michael Mauboussin

An American author and investor, cited by Tim Ferriss as someone who discusses cognitive biases.

Marcelo Garcia

A nine-time world champion in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Josh Waitzkin's instructor, known as the 'King of the Scramble' for his transitional play.

Michael Gervais

A sports psychologist mentioned by Josh Waitzkin as someone who discussed 'thrusting into big waves' in surfing.

Robert Pirsig

Author of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, whose term 'philosophist' is used by Josh to differentiate between true philosophers and those who merely theorize.

Cal Ripken Jr.

An American former professional baseball shortstop and third baseman, mentioned as one of the top performers Josh Waitzkin coaches.

Jack Waitzkin

Josh Waitzkin's son, whose upbringing and learning experiences are discussed as an example of Josh's parenting philosophy.

Carol Dweck

A foundational developmental psychologist known for her work on 'mindset' (fixed vs. growth theories of intelligence).

Ernest Hemingway

An American novelist and short-story writer, whose writing process of stopping mid-sentence to provide a foothold for the next day is mentioned.

Mark Messier

A Canadian former professional ice hockey player and coach, mentioned as one of the top performers Josh Waitzkin coaches.

Eric Enerson

A friend of Tim Ferriss and Josh Waitzkin, a brilliant teacher of stand-up paddle surfing and host of the Paddlecast podcast.

John Danaher

An incredible athlete and teacher in Jiu-Jitsu, mentioned by Tim Ferriss.

Jack Ma

The co-founder of Alibaba, quoted by Tim Ferriss on the advantage of starting with no resources.

Media

Dinosaur Train

A children's animated television series being played for Josh Waitzkin's son.

Anton Ego

The food critic from the movie Ratatouille, used as an analogy to the 'armchair professor' or 'philosophist' by Josh Waitzkin.

Software & Apps

Headspace

A meditation and mindfulness app, recommended as a tool for individuals starting a meditation practice.

Evernote

A note-taking software application used by Josh Waitzkin for journaling and thematic tagging of insights and resources.

Slackline

A strip of webbing tensioned between two anchor points, used for balance training.

HeartMath

A system that uses biofeedback and other techniques to help individuals regulate emotions and physiological states, particularly heart rate variability (HRV).

Products

BOSU Ball

A fitness training device consisting of an inverted stability ball with a flat platform on top, used for balance and core workouts.

Indo Board

A balance board used for training and improving balance, core strength, and stability.

Seuss gloves

Ridiculous striped gloves bought by Tim Ferriss as a personal exercise in non-conformity.