How has the U.S. presidency changed since Lincoln's time?

The presidency has drastically changed. Presidents now communicate directly with the public, are under intense scrutiny in all aspects of their lives, and wield immense, almost 'inhuman' power to deploy force globally and conduct targeted assassinations, a scale unconceivable by the founders.

Does a U.S. president have full knowledge of all government secrets, such as alien spacecraft or cybersecurity operations?

Presidents, like leaders of any complex organization, do not automatically know everything. They must ask the right questions, relying on people of integrity rather than loyalists to bring crucial information forward, as agencies do not always volunteer sensitive data.

Why is Bill Clinton a fascinating figure for studying the presidency and American society?

Bill Clinton fascinates Suri because he represents a figure of enormous talent and appetite with limited self-control, mirroring both the best and worst of American society's creativity and flaws. Presidents, in this sense, act as mirrors reflecting the nation.

Why is it important for presidents to be students of history?

Suri believes studying history is crucial for presidents because it informs decisions about human nature and social change, areas that technical knowledge cannot address. History provides a 'laboratory of human behavior' to understand patterns of change and better adapt to present circumstances, rather than holding onto the past.

What lessons does George Washington offer regarding the nature of power?

Washington demonstrated that true power can be gained by relinquishing it. He strategically gave up his command after the Revolutionary War and his presidency after two terms, recognizing that his respected status as a 'disinterested statesman' was more valuable than clinging to power.

Why is it dangerous for leaders, like Vladimir Putin or even startup founders, to stay in power for too long?

Staying in power too long is corrupting because leaders begin to forget their initial ideals and act solely in the interest of maintaining power, rather than their purpose. This process can lead to hubris, destructive outcomes, and the qualities of dictators, as observed in figures like Stalin and Putin.

What characterized Franklin D. Roosevelt's effective leadership during the Great Depression?

FDR's leadership was defined by empathy, connecting authentically with people from different backgrounds, and helping Americans feel a sense of common suffering and mission. Instead of simple solutions, he framed problems clearly and gave people a collective mission, as exemplified by his Fireside Chats and infrastructure initiatives like the New Deal.

What were the limitations and criticisms against F.D.R. during World War II?

FDR is criticized for not doing enough to stop the killing of Jews during the Holocaust, particularly by not bombing rail lines to Auschwitz, which could have saved a million lives. This inaction was partly due to an isolationist public, a desire to win the war without being accused of fighting 'for Jews,' and possible racial biases, also evident in the internment of Japanese Americans.

What is 'realpolitik' according to Henry Kissinger's approach to foreign policy?

Realpolitik, for Kissinger, involves focusing on power centers globally and manipulating them to serve one's country's interests. This involves building strong alliances to leverage resources and actively limiting adversarial power through containment or negotiation, as seen in his opening to China and Middle East diplomacy.

What lessons can be drawn from the Cold War for potential future cyber conflicts?

The Cold War was fundamentally a struggle between two ideologies: liberal capitalism and communism. Current generations, unaware of the deep fear of communism, should understand the resource costs and opportunity costs of such conflicts, and consider the limitations of bipolar views, recognizing the nuanced role of other global actors like China.

Is there a real threat of communism in the United States today?

No, Suri argues there is no communism in the United States, as Americans are deeply ingrained with private property ownership. He suggests that what is often labeled 'socialism' (e.g., Bernie Sanders' ideas) harks back to social democratic elements that actually helped the U.S. win the Cold War, such as investments in infrastructure and social support systems.

How should young people approach their careers and life choices?

Young people should find what they are passionate about, as talent and passion often overlap, leading to excellent work for which people will pay. Secondly, they should build diverse, genuine networks not based on power, but on finding interesting people, as connections often lead to key opportunities.

What is the meaning of life from a historical perspective?

From a historical perspective, the meaning of life is a mystery that has puzzled people across all periods. Suri concludes that meaning is ultimately 'what we make of it.' He suggests that humans are slowly moving toward a larger world community encompassing all biological and eventually artificial life, expanding our sense of family and connection.

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Jeremi Suri: History of American Power | Lex Fridman Podcast #180

Lex Fridman

Science & Technology7 min read129 min video

Apr 30, 2021|546,206 views|8,893|943

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TL;DR

Historian Jeremi Suri discusses American power, presidential leadership, and the evolving nature of the presidency.

Key Insights

Abraham Lincoln is considered the greatest American president for giving voice to the voiceless and making politics an art of liberation.

Presidential effectiveness relies on both public communication and private one-on-one diplomacy, with a crucial ability to tell stories and read people.

The U.S. presidency has dramatically evolved, gaining direct communication power through technology but also facing immense scrutiny and wielding unprecedented global power.

Historical structures and circumstances significantly influence presidential actions, often pushing leaders towards established tools like military force, even against their initial intentions.

Henry Kissinger's career exemplifies the shift in American power, moving from a focus on elite, WASP-led foreign policy to incorporating cosmopolitan, strategically-minded advisors.

Realpolitik, focused on power centers and national interest, involves building alliances and limiting adversaries, often at the expense of less powerful nations or human rights concerns.

FDR's leadership during the Great Depression and WWII was characterized by empathy, hope, and the creation of a common mission, rather than simple solutions.

Great leaders, like FDR and Washington, often demonstrate wisdom by understanding the limits of power and the importance of relinquishing it.

The digital age and biotechnology are seen as transformative innovations that will significantly shape how this era is remembered in history.

Learning languages fosters empathy and a deeper understanding of different cultures and perspectives, crucial for historical and global comprehension.

THE GREATEST AMERICAN PRESIDENT

Jeremi Suri identifies Abraham Lincoln as the greatest American president, citing his ability to give voice to the voiceless and transform politics into an art of liberation. Lincoln, a man with only two years of formal education, mastered language to inspire people to imagine a better world. His ambition stemmed from a desire for independence from dependency, embodying the ideal of self-ownership and the opportunity for hard work to be compensated, a core tenet of early capitalism and the Republican party he represented. This drive, coupled with his linguistic skills, allowed him to articulate a vision that resonated beyond American borders.

THE ART OF LEADERSHIP AND POLITICAL STRATEGY

Effective leadership, Suri explains, involves both public oratory and private diplomacy. While speeches can be impactful, the ability to connect one-on-one, listen, and strategize is paramount. Leaders like Lincoln and FDR excelled at telling stories to disarm and influence individuals, a skill that requires intimate understanding of human nature and a strategic foresight, much like a chess player planning multiple moves ahead. This personalistic approach, coupled with compelling narratives, allows leaders to persuade and guide diverse constituencies, even when faced with opposition.

EVOLUTION OF THE PRESIDENCY AND GLOBAL POWER

The office of the U.S. presidency has undergone profound changes since Lincoln's time. Presidents now possess unprecedented direct communication capabilities, bypassing traditional media. However, this increased visibility comes with intense public scrutiny. More significantly, the president's power to act globally, including the ability to conduct assassinations through drone warfare, has reached 'inhuman' scales, a development unimaginable to the Founding Fathers. This concentration of power, while potentially serving national security interests like counter-terrorism, raises serious questions about democratic control and accountability in foreign policy.

STRUCTURE VERSUS INDIVIDUAL AGENCY IN LEADERSHIP

Suri emphasizes the significant role of structure and circumstance in shaping presidential actions, arguing that institutions and prevailing conditions often exert more influence than individual will. Presidents, even those with noble intentions like Barack Obama, can be pushed towards using existing tools, such as military force, due to bureaucratic inertia and external pressures. While presidents can influence policy by strategically managing access and reforming institutions, entrenched structures and crises can limit their ability to enact radical change, highlighting a constant tension between personal vision and systemic constraints.

REALPOLITIK AND HENRY KISSINGER'S LEGACY

Henry Kissinger's career, from an impoverished German Jewish immigrant to a dominant figure in U.S. foreign policy, exemplifies the evolving nature of power. His approach, termed 'realpolitik,' prioritizes national interest and power dynamics over ideology or human rights. This strategy involves building alliances with powerful nations and strategically limiting adversaries, as seen in the opening to China and Middle East diplomacy. While effective in serving U.S. interests, this pragmatic, power-focused approach often overlooks the concerns of less powerful nations and can lead to morally complex decisions, including the misuse of military power.

THE WISDOM OF EMPATHY AND COMMON MISSION

Franklin D. Roosevelt stands out for his profound empathy, connecting with the struggles of ordinary Americans during the Great Depression and WWII. Unlike leaders offering simple solutions, FDR framed problems and created a sense of common suffering and shared mission, fostering hope and unity. His fireside chats demonstrated an ability to explain complex issues and inspire collective action. This model of leadership, rooted in understanding and connecting with people's experiences, is presented as a powerful tool for unifying a divided nation, even in the face of modern challenges like pandemics and political polarization.

THE CORRUPTING NATURE OF POWER AND THE IMPORTANCE OF HUMILITY

The historical study of power consistently reveals its corrupting influence. Figures like George Washington, who relinquished power voluntarily, demonstrate a sophisticated understanding that perceived disinterestedness can amplify a statesman's influence. In contrast, leaders who cling to power for extended periods often lose sight of their original ideals and become detrimental. This reinforces the notion that power should be held temporarily as a fiduciary responsibility, not as a personal possession. The seductive nature of power's trappings and the fear of what comes after can prevent leaders from making principled decisions about relinquishing control.

THE MEANING OF HISTORY AND LESSONS FOR THE FUTURE

History, Suri argues, is not about returning to the past but about understanding change over time. It serves as a laboratory for human behavior, offering insights into patterns of progress and recurring challenges like corruption and conflict. While idealism is crucial, it must be tempered with realism. Studying history helps individuals and societies recognize the limits of their agency and the importance of adapting to circumstances. The lessons of the past, from the Cold War to the misuse of power, inform present decisions, encouraging leaders to remember their purpose and ensure their means are proportional to their ends.

HISTORICAL CONTEXT AND CONTEMPORARY CHALLENGES

The 20th century's Cold War was a profound ideological struggle between capitalist liberal democracy and communism. Today, students perceive this era differently, focusing on American power expansion and opportunity costs, alongside a more nuanced view of global dynamics. A key concern is the potential forgetting of historical lessons regarding communism's atrocities, leading to a risk of accepting certain ideologies without full comprehension. However, Suri contends that true communism is absent in the U.S.; instead, the conversation often revolves around social democracy, which has historically coexisted with capitalism and played a role in America's Cold War success.

THE ESSENCE OF AMERICAN INDIVIDUALISM AND FREEDOM

American individualism, deeply ingrained in the culture, shapes how freedom is perceived. While it can lead to vigilante violence and the normalization of personal responsibility for defense, it fundamentally champions an individual's right to self-protection. This contrasts sharply with more collective societies. The debate around gun control, for example, often boils down to the extent of individual freedom, even for potentially 'stupid' choices, provided they don't unduly harm others. This emphasis on individual liberty, liberty of property, and the right to self-defense remains a core, defining element of the American identity.

INNOVATION, TECHNOLOGY, AND THE FUTURE OF CIVILIZATION

Historians of the future will likely remember this era for its rapid technological innovation, particularly the creation of a virtual universe and advancements in biotechnology, exemplified by mRNA vaccines. The pandemic acted as a catalyst, accelerating the shift towards virtual interactions and interdependence. While these innovations hold immense promise, they also present challenges, such as the potential for developing bioweapons. Simultaneously, the failure to address environmental degradation may be seen as a dark age, contrasting with humanity's growing capacity for exploration, artificial intelligence, and perhaps, interstellar expansion.

FINDING MEANING THROUGH PASSION, EXCELLENCE, AND CONNECTION

The meaning of life, Suri suggests, is not a universal constant but something individuals create through their passions and actions. He advises young people to pursue what they love, as passion and talent often lead to valuable work for which people will pay. Building diverse, genuine networks is also crucial. Excellence in any endeavor, regardless of its perceived importance, fosters a culture of mastery and attracts opportunities. This pursuit of excellence, coupled with treating everyone with respect—a lesson learned from his grandmother—forms the foundation for a meaningful life and contributes to a more authentic and connected society.

Mentioned in This Episode

●Software & Apps

●Companies

●Organizations

●Books

●Concepts

●People Referenced

Common Questions

Jeremi Suri considers Abraham Lincoln the greatest American president because he gave voice to the voiceless, transforming politics into an art of liberation. Lincoln, despite only two years of education, mastered language to inspire a better world and embody the ideal of opportunity and self-reliance.

Topics

Foreign Policy Leadership & Management History & Geopolitics Society & Philosophy Social Change Cold War Technological Innovation American Democracy Leadership Qualities Presidential History Political Power

Mentioned in this video

People

George W. Bush

Mentioned in the context of the use of torture during the War on Terror, where he intentionally avoided asking difficult questions.

Sergey Brin

Co-founder of Google, mentioned as a founder who stayed with his company for a long time but stepped back in what is described as a 'tragic way' because of the changing corporate mission.

Saul Bellow

Great novelist, an immigrant who felt F.D.R. spoke to him, unlike other politicians trying to 'steal' from immigrants.

Thomas Jefferson

The ideal of self-ownership and independence for every American is linked to his vision.

Adolf Hitler

Discussed for his exceptional one-on-one effectiveness as a leader, with people noting his 'piercing gaze.' The historical context of World War II and the Holocaust is also covered.

Max Weber

Thinker who wrote about the power of charisma, a term he used in the context of prophets and leaders with a 'magic' about them.

George Washington

Praised for his self-awareness and strategic choice to relinquish power, recognizing that his status as a disinterested statesman was more important than holding onto every last piece of power.

Larry Page

Co-founder of Google, mentioned as a founder who stayed with his company for a long time, but eventually stepped back from day-to-day operations.

Herbert Hoover

Mentioned as an opponent of F.D.R. who continued to accuse him of being a conspirator, highlighting the political opposition F.D.R. faced.

Dwight D. Eisenhower

A Republican president who continued F.D.R.'s investment in road construction with the Interstate Highway System, showing a bipartisan approach to infrastructure.

Zhou Enlai

Chinese premier with whom Kissinger built a relationship during the opening to China, which was unthinkable just years earlier.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

Compared to Lincoln for his storytelling abilities and discussed as a great leader who connected empathetically with diverse people during the Great Depression. He used fireside chats to unite Americans around common missions.

Vladimir Putin

Mentioned in the discussion about presidential power and the difficulty of relinquishing it due to its seductive nature and fear of what comes next. Also discussed regarding potential cyber warfare.

Steve Jobs

His departure from Apple (by passing away) is noted as sad, similar to contemplating the future of SpaceX and Tesla without Elon Musk.

Nikolai Bukharin

An early Bolshevik leader whose more moderate form of communism Gorbachev may have sought to return to.

Joseph Stalin

Described as a one-on-one storyteller, similar to Lincoln and Roosevelt in that regard. His long tenure in power and its corrupting effects are discussed.

Ronald Reagan

Compared to Lincoln and Roosevelt for his storytelling ability and mentioned in the context of the Iran-Contra affair regarding presidential knowledge of controversial activities. Also, noted for his interest in history through movies.

Stephen A. Schwarzman

Businessman who identifies people's biggest problems to build closer relationships, a tactic akin to manipulation in political and business contexts.

Osama bin Laden

His killing is cited as an example of a modern assassination operation conducted by the U.S. presidency against a terrorist leader.

Gary Wills

Historian who wrote about Washington's understanding that sometimes you gain more power by giving it up.

Henry Kissinger

Described as a fascinating figure who immigrated to the U.S. at 15, becoming a major U.S. foreign policy influencer, often reviled but also sought after for his intellect and cosmopolitanism. His realpolitik approach emphasized power centers and manipulation.

Mao Zedong

Chinese leader with whom Kissinger built a relationship, despite previous hostilities, as part of the opening to China. Kissinger would praise Mao's leadership to appeal to his ego.

Abraham Lincoln

Considered by Jeremi Suri to be the greatest American president, who gave voice to the voiceless and made politics an art of liberation. He came from humble beginnings and mastered language to inspire a better world.

Carl von Clausewitz

Great 19th-century German thinker on strategy and politics, whose wisdom on persuasion and planning Lincoln embodied without reading his works.

George H.W. Bush

Mentioned for his interest in history through conversations with historians, contrasting with more bookish presidents.

Boris Yeltsin

Compared to Putin in the context of relinquishing power, suggesting Putin could gain historical greatness by stepping down like Yeltsin.

Teddy Roosevelt

Mentioned as a powerful and charismatic figure with whom people connected, despite potentially being 'bad motherfuckers'.

Richard Nixon

President during Kissinger's opening to China, who was suspicious of Kissinger's limelight but needed him for his efficacy. Described as willing to 'backstab'.

Leo Tolstoy

Russian author who reflected on Lincoln's greatness, noting how even peasants in the Caucasus recognized Lincoln for his ability to give voice to people.

Donald Trump

Mentioned for his 'quickness' and instinct about human nature in one-on-one interactions, despite not being a deep thinker. Also presented as an authentic politician in contrast to a 'fake' one.

Horace Greeley

Editor of the New-York Tribune, through whom Lincoln often communicated with the public in the absence of direct media channels.

Barack Obama

Discussed regarding his role in expanding the military-industrial complex and continuation of wars, despite initial rhetoric. He is seen as a deep scholar of history.

Xi Jinping

Mentioned as a world leader with whom a U.S. president would find it difficult to reach agreement, in contrast to the ease of using military force.

Bill Clinton

Described as a fascinating figure of immense talent, appetite, and lack of self-control, mirroring both the best and worst aspects of American society.

Nelson Rockefeller

One of Kissinger's early patrons, who wanted 'a really smart Jew' like Kissinger to be around him, highlighting the role of identity in Kissinger's early career.

Jeff Bezos

Used as an example of a billionaire at the 'top of the podium' to emphasize the importance of treating everyone with respect, regardless of their status.

David Foster Wallace

Cited by Lex Fridman as someone who finds joy in excelling even at 'boring' or menial tasks.

Elon Musk

Cited as an example of an entrepreneur who creates everything from nothing. Also mentioned in the context of founders who stay with their companies for a long time and drive innovation in space exploration.

Lyndon Johnson

His early life in Austin, Texas, was impacted by the electricity brought by Hoover Dam, illustrating the long-term benefits of F.D.R.'s infrastructure projects.

Hamilton Fish Armstrong

Friend of F.D.R. and Council on Foreign Relations figure who warned as early as 1934 that Hitler was dangerous and would cause a war.

Michael Walzer

A scholar mentioned in the context of 'just war' theory, which defines a just war by its purpose and proportional means.

Nikita Khrushchev

Soviet leader who believed in communism's economic supremacy, aiming to 'catch Britain in five years and then the United States after that.'

Mikhail Gorbachev

Soviet leader who believed he could reform the Soviet Union back to an earlier form of communism.

Bernie Sanders

His 'socialist elements' are discussed as fundamentally different from communism, aligning with social democracy compatible with capitalism.

Joe Rogan

Mentioned by Lex Fridman as someone he's 'been hanging out with recently' and who shared his curiosity about high-level government secrets.

Joe Biden

Discussed in terms of his current attempt to unite a divided nation, referencing FDR's approach. The speaker expresses a personal difficulty connecting with Biden despite his on-paper empathy.

Fritz Kraemer

A gentleman who became a sponsor of Kissinger in the emerging Pentagon defense department world, part of the network Kissinger formed in counter-intelligence.

Vladimir Lenin

Founder of the Russian Communist Party, whose earlier form of communism Gorbachev may have sought to return to.

Dustin Hoffman

Actor in 'The Graduate,' whose character is advised to go into plastics for money, used as an example of how career predictions can be unreliable.

Companies

Google

Its initial mission of making the world's information accessible is praised, but its subsequent corporatization is viewed as a sad departure from its original ideals.

Tesla

Mentioned as a company whose future without Elon Musk is sad to contemplate, potentially becoming more corporate and stale.

SpaceX

Mentioned as a company whose future without Elon Musk is sad to contemplate, potentially becoming more corporate and stale. Also credited for revived interest in space exploration.

Locations

Auschwitz

Cited as a concentration camp whose rail lines could have been bombed by the United States during WWII, potentially saving a million Jewish lives.

Texas

The discussion briefly shifts to the state where the podcast is being recorded, relating to gun control debates.

Hoover Dam

An infrastructure project built by F.D.R.'s administration, which brought electricity to regions and provided jobs, serving as an example of unifying public works.

Books

Thomas Mann's Buddenbrooks

A novel Jeremi Suri's favorite, about a German family's rise and fall, reflecting on cycles of life and the limits of human agency.

Leo Tolstoy's War and Peace

A big book Jeremi Suri assigns to his students, which challenges the notion of individual control over history, emphasizing contingency and circumstance.

Media

Jiro Dreams of Sushi

Used as an example of finding joy and mastery in repetitive, seemingly simple tasks, like making sushi. It celebrates the pursuit of excellence.

The Graduate

Cited for the scene where Dustin Hoffman is famously told, 'Plastics' as a clear path to money, illustrating the futility of predicting future lucrative careers.

Organizations

Wikipedia

Compared to Google's mission of making information accessible, highlighting its incredible contribution.

Republican Party

The party for which Lincoln was the first president, created to give voice to poor white men, slaves, and immigrants.

CIA

Mentioned as an organization whose information collection on Americans could be a difficult question for a president to ask.

Works Progress Administration

F.D.R.'s program that invested in building thousands of schools and planting trees, demonstrating how public works can unite people.

Harvard University

Where Kissinger received his education later in life and established a network through his International Seminar, which boosted his career.

Concepts

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle

The principle that observation changes the observed is applied to policy-making, suggesting that decision-makers need outside perspectives to avoid being too close to a problem.

Legislation & Policy

Second Amendment

Discussed in the context of gun ownership as a right to self-defense, distinct from weapons designed for mass killing.