Elizabeth Gilbert and Jack Kornfield
Tim FerrissKey Moments
Tim Ferriss celebrates 10 years and 1 billion downloads, featuring Elizabeth Gilbert on loss and creativity, and Jack Kornfield on meditation and compassion.
Key Insights
Elizabeth Gilbert shares deeply personal experiences of profound love and loss, highlighting the importance of humor in navigating life's brutalities and embracing inevitable change.
Gilbert emphasizes the importance of intuition and setting boundaries, especially true 'no's', even when challenging, to protect personal integrity and mental well-being.
Jack Kornfield recounts his transformative journey from a turbulent childhood to becoming a Buddhist monk in Thailand, emphasizing the healing power of embracing one's inner struggles.
Kornfield discusses the profound impact of psychedelics in opening consciousness, and the deeper, sustainable transformation achieved through meditation and spiritual practice that transcends substance use.
Both speakers underscore the immense power of compassion and self-love, particularly through practices like loving-kindness meditation, as critical for personal well-being and impacting the world positively.
The conversation explores the role of ancient wisdom and modern psychology in addressing personal and societal challenges, from emotional regulation to fostering collective well-being through intentional practice.
CELEBRATING A DECADE OF THE TIM FERRISS SHOW
Tim Ferriss opens the episode by marking a significant milestone for his podcast: 10 years and over one billion downloads. To commemorate this achievement, he presents a 'two-for-one' super combo episode, featuring highlights from some of his favorite guests. The aim is not only to re-introduce listeners to well-known figures but also to shine a light on individuals whose insights have profoundly impacted his life and, he believes, can do the same for his audience. This celebratory episode weaves together diverse wisdom, offering a rich tapestry of personal growth and practical philosophy.
ELIZABETH GILBERT ON LOVE, GRIEF, AND THE ALPHA OF SAFETY
Elizabeth Gilbert shares a deeply moving account of her profound love for Reya Elias, her partner and soulmate. Reya, a resilient and extraordinary woman who overcame addiction to live a powerful life, represented an 'alpha' figure, providing a sense of safety and grounding for everyone around her, especially Gilbert. Their love story, which blossomed in the face of a terminal cancer diagnosis, highlights the courage and dignity involved in confronting the end of life. Gilbert recounts Reya's fierce refusal to conform to a 'soft, hippie death,' embracing her own badass warrior spirit until the very end, demonstrating a brutal yet beautiful testament to living and dying authentically.
HUMOR AS GRACE IN THE FACE OF DEATH
Gilbert emphasizes the crucial role of humor, especially 'gallows humor,' in navigating the devastating experience of loss and grief. She shares anecdotes from Reya's final days, including a hospice nurse's motto, "If you can't laugh at death, get out of show business." This perspective underscores humor not as disrespect but as a vital coping mechanism and a form of grace that allows survival through life's harshest realities. Gilbert vividly describes a moment of shared laughter among Reya's loved ones immediately after her death, illustrating how humor can coexist with profound sorrow and help process unimaginable pain.
THE SURPRISING AND INEVITABLE POWER OF ART
Exploring the nature of impactful art, Gilbert defines great works as both 'surprising and inevitable,' creating a profound, DNA-rearranging experience for the audience. She cites T.S. Eliot's poem 'East Coker' as a prime example, particularly its wisdom on 'waiting without hope' during times of brokenness, grief, or uncertainty. This concept resonates with meditators and those facing life's limits, offering a path to find light in darkness and dancing in stillness by surrendering control. Walt Whitman's ability to be 'both in and out of the game' of life also captivates her, representing a high point of enlightenment in engaging fully while maintaining detachment.
MARTHA BECK'S BONFIRE MOMENTS AND THE ART OF SAYING NO
Gilbert draws on the teachings of Martha Beck, particularly the analogy of 'bonfire moments'—life-altering decisions that require a leap of faith. These moments, like leaving a marriage, either reveal fears to be unfounded or lead to a phoenix-like rebirth. She also delves into the complex art of saying "no." Gilbert describes learning to treat her inbox as her home, deleting unsolicited requests without remorse. For desired but unfeasible engagements, she advocates for a 'simple no'—a 'thank you, and no' without elaborate explanations, a technique often challenging but vital for protecting personal integrity and boundaries, especially with loved ones.
JACK KORNFIELD'S JOURNEY: FROM TURBULENT CHILDHOOD TO HANG GLIDING MONK
Jack Kornfield recounts a childhood marked by an abusive yet brilliant biophysicist father, fostering an environment of unpredictability and fear. This turbulent upbringing, combined with frequent moves, shaped him profoundly. Despite the chaos, intellectual curiosity thrived, leading him from pre-med studies at Dartmouth to Asian philosophy. His journey took an unexpected turn into the Peace Corps in Thailand, where a chance encounter led him to the renowned Buddhist master Ajahn Chah. This marked the beginning of his monastic path, a decision influenced by a desire for healing and a search for deeper truth beyond his challenging early life.
FINDING SILENCE AND EMBRACING SUFFERING IN MONASTIC LIFE
Kornfield vividly describes the rigorous training in Thai and Burmese forest monasteries, where discipline included waking at 3:30 AM, barefoot alms rounds, and meditating for hours on hard stone floors. His teacher, Ajahn Chah, greeted him with, "I hope you're not afraid to suffer," a testament to the intense inner and outer challenges awaiting him. Kornfield spent 500 days in silence in a Burmese monastery, confronting deep-seated anger and trauma from his childhood, and learning to tolerate suffering rather than suppress it. These experiences, including out-of-body phenomena and physical discomfort, were integral to his spiritual development and understanding of self.
THE DANGERS AND POSSIBILITIES OF PSCHYEDELICS
Kornfield shares his early experiences with psychedelics, particularly LSD, in the 1960s. He acknowledges their role in revealing the incredible possibility of inner freedom and the nature of consciousness, showing him that identity extends beyond the physical body and personal history. However, he also highlights the critical importance of 'set and setting' and intention for meaningful experiences, noting that true, sustainable transformation comes from dedicated spiritual practice. He references the ongoing scientific research into psychedelics at institutions like Johns Hopkins and NYU, underscoring their potential for therapeutic breakthroughs when used responsibly and in the right context.
THE POWER OF LOVING-KINDNESS AND SELF-COMPASSION
Kornfield discusses the profound importance of loving-kindness and self-compassion, particularly in Western cultures prone to self-criticism. He recounts an exchange with the Dalai Lama, who struggled to understand the concept of 'self-hatred,' as it was foreign to Tibetan Buddhist thought. This realization led Kornfield and his colleagues to integrate loving-kindness (Metta) meditation into their teachings as a foundational practice. He explains how wishing well-being first to loved ones, then allowing that kindness to extend to oneself, gradually softens self-judgment, allowing for healing and genuine self-acceptance. This practice is presented as a powerful counter to the inner critic and a pathway to deeper contentment.
THE WISDOM OF THE BODY AND THE QUEST FOR SELF-UNDERSTANDING
Kornfield emphasizes that true wisdom often resides within, accessible by quieting the mind and listening to the body's subtle signals. He quotes his teacher, Martha Beck, on how cultural conditioning often overrides the body's innate wisdom, leading individuals down paths contrary to their true well-being. He suggests that self-discovery is a lifelong journey, characterized by profound questions like, "Who am I?" rather than definitive answers. Kornfield highlights that our true nature is not merely our thoughts, emotions, or physical form, but the timeless, witnessing consciousness—a realization that brings immense freedom and well-being amidst life's ever-changing experiences.
COMPASSION: BEYOND EMPATHY TO ACTION
Kornfield differentiates compassion from empathy, explaining that while empathy is feeling another's suffering, compassion is feeling it and being moved to alleviate it. He describes compassion as the 'quivering of the heart' that compels one to act. Citing early childhood studies, he affirms that compassion is an innate human capacity, not a weakness, and can be reawakened and extended through practice. He encourages small acts of kindness and intervention, emphasizing that one's role isn't to fix the entire world, but to mend what can be mended, recognizing a shared humanity. This active form of caring transforms personal and collective experiences.
DEALING WITH ANGER AND THE GIFT OF JUJIRO KANO
Kornfield guides Tim Ferriss through a visualization exercise to manage anger, acknowledging it as potent energy. Ferriss, a naturally impatient person, tends to lash out when triggered. Kornfield suggests that instead of suppressing anger, one should respectfully acknowledge it as energy. Ferriss visualizes Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, who offers him a blue, stable glass pyramid. This pyramid symbolizes cooling stability and power, which Ferriss integrates into his body. Kano's whispered advice, 'Zenyo Zenyo' (maximum or benevolent use of energy), becomes a guiding principle for transforming anger into a controlled and constructive force, demonstrating how inner wisdom can be accessed to manage challenging emotions.
THE RETURN FROM MONASTICISM AND THE INTEGRATION OF EASTERN AND WESTERN PSYCHOLOGY
After five years in Asian monasteries, Kornfield made the conscious decision to return to the U.S., driven by a desire for family and the need to test whether his spiritual learnings could translate into everyday Western life. He pursued a degree in Clinical Psychology to integrate Eastern and Western approaches, finding complementary strengths in both for trauma work and personal growth. He notes the growing acceptance of mindfulness and meditation in contemporary Western psychology, reflecting a broader cultural shift. Kornfield emphasizes that the inner capacities developed through these practices are universally liberating, benefiting diverse populations from incarcerated individuals to CEOs, and facilitating presence and compassion.
THE POWER OF STORYTELLING AND RITUALS FOR HEALING
Kornfield highlights the transformative power of storytelling and simple rituals in creating safe spaces for healing, especially for marginalized and traumatized groups. He shares an anecdote about working with gang kids, where a ritual of lighting candles for lost friends allowed them to voice their grief and connect authentically. He also recounts a story told by Michael Meade to combat veterans: an old Irish myth about a warrior-hero, Cúchulainn, re-integrated into his community through rituals, song, and stories. This myth helped the veterans confront their own trauma, illustrating how ancient wisdom can provide a blueprint for collective healing and reconnection for those profoundly impacted by violence.
A BILLBOARD MESSAGE FOR A BETTER WORLD
When asked for a billboard message, Kornfield proposes a question rather than a statement: "Did I love well?" or "How could I love myself and this world better?" This reflective inquiry underscores that true fulfillment lies in compassion and connection. He cites historical optimists like Martin Luther King Jr., Pablo Neruda, and Steven Pinker, who believed in humanity's capacity for progress and kindness. Kornfield emphasizes that despite global challenges, humans possess an innate capacity for understanding, courage, and love, which can lead to collective awakening. He believes that by nurturing this inner transformation, humanity can address outwardly complex issues and build a more benevolent future.
Mentioned in This Episode
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Common Questions
Rhea Elias was Elizabeth Gilbert's great love, a Syrian Detroit-raised rock and roll hairdresser, filmmaker, musician, and author. She was fiercely independent, a former heroin addict who achieved 19 years of sobriety, and deeply admired by Elizabeth for her strength and ability to make everyone feel safe.
Topics
Mentioned in this video
A best-selling book authored by Robb Wolf.
A magazine that awarded Helix as the number one mattress.
A concept Elizabeth Gilbert follows, representing an internal guide that helps determine true desires and set boundaries.
A senior professor and psychopharmacologist at Johns Hopkins University, conducting research on psilocybin.
A powerful breath transformation technique developed by Stan Grof.
A book written by Sebastian Junger that touches on similar topics of community and belonging.
A specific mattress model from Helix Sleep that Tim Ferris personally uses and recommends.
Elizabeth Gilbert's partner and the love of her life, described as a strong, extraordinary, lesbian Syrian Detroit-raised rock and roll hairdresser, filmmaker, author, and musician; a former heroin addict who achieved 19 years of sobriety.
Neurons from neuroscience that help explain empathy and interconnectedness.
An automobile manufacturer, whose chairman, Bill Ford, sought Jack Kornfield's advice during a crisis.
A location in Switzerland where Jack Kornfield enjoys tandem paragliding.
A Western monk and first Peace Corps volunteer in Borneo, who told Jack Kornfield about Ajahn Chah.
A book by Steven Pinker discussed by Jack Kornfield, charting humanity's growing consciousness and peacemaking abilities.
A book written by Jack Kornfield.
Ram Dass's former name, mentioned in the context of his early psychedelic research at Harvard.
A 40-day program from Sounds True, recommended by Jack Kornfield for learning inner skills in mindfulness, loving awareness, and loving-kindness.
A movie used as an analogy to describe the exceptional quality of Hillary Mantel's third book in 'The Wolf Hall Trilogy,' which was as good as the first two.
A meditation center in California, co-founded by Jack Kornfield.
Chairman of the social science and psychology department at Harvard who hired and later fired Tim Leary and Ram Dass.
An island where Ajahn Sumedho was the first Peace Corps volunteer.
A scientist who discusses 'extended presence' in relation to consciousness.
A former early engineer at Google, creator of the 'Search Inside Yourself' program, who recommended loving-kindness meditation to Tim Ferris.
An ancient culture mentioned by Michael Meade as having stories and rituals for warriors returning from war.
A New York Times bestselling book by Elizabeth Gilbert about creative living.
A university conducting research on psilocybin.
The UN body that granted permission for Mahaghosananda to build a temple in a refugee camp.
A publishing company for spiritual and wisdom traditions, highly recommended by Jack Kornfield for guided meditations and programs.
A richer and fuller book by Jack Kornfield, recommended as a starting point.
A series of books by Hillary Mantel about Henry VIII, praised for its intimate and seemingly accurate portrayal of 16th-century England.
A method developed by Byron Katie for self-inquiry and emotional transformation, personally recommended by Elizabeth Gilbert.
A book written by Jack Kornfield.
A mindfulness program developed at Google by Chade-Meng Tan, initially the most oversubscribed class for employees.
A Pulitzer Prize-winning poet and environmentalist, known for his work on bioregionalism.
An ethnic group in West Africa, whose shaman friend of Jack Kornfield uses a cargo metaphor for gifts children bring to the world.
Elizabeth Gilbert's latest book at the time of the recording.
A poem by T.S. Eliot that Elizabeth Gilbert found deeply moving and helpful during difficult times.
A Christian movement known for their pacifism and social activism, David McClelland and his wife were Quakers.
Stan Grof's wife at the time he met Jack Kornfield, mentioned as Joan Grof.
The tradition containing the story of the Irish warrior Cú Chulainn.
A harrowing documentary film co-produced and shot by Sebastian Junger.
Helix Sleep's newest collection of mattresses, featuring six models tailored for specific sleep positions and firmness preferences, with extra foam and micro-coils.
University where Roland Griffith conducts research on psilocybin and its therapeutic applications.
Country where Jack Kornfield spent 500 days in a monastery doing intense meditative training.
A download from Sounds True containing various guided practices including loving-kindness, compassion, forgiveness, and joy.
A graduate student at Harvard, who introduced Jack Kornfield to the psychological diagrams of Tibetan Buddhism and later wrote 'Emotional Intelligence'.
The communist party that came to power in Cambodia, responsible for the genocide of 2 million Cambodians.
A deeper training program offered after 'Mindfulness Daily' for further developing mindfulness skills.
A book about the abolition of slavery in the British Empire, emphasizing the power of collective action and love.
A meditation center in Massachusetts, co-founded by Jack Kornfield.
A psychological diagram from Tibetan thangkas, described by Dan Goleman as illustrating how craving leads to contentment and aggression can transform into healing energy.
An environmental philosophy that emphasizes natural geographic regions; Gary Snyder wrote about it.
A sacred mountain, metaphorically referenced when discussing carrying wisdom in one's heart.
A drummer, storyteller, and mythologist from Mosaic Multicultural Foundation, who works with gang kids, vets, and prisoners, and uses ancient stories to help heal trauma.
An organization associated with Michael Meade and Luis Rodriguez, focused on working with diverse populations including gang kids, vets, and prisoners.
A poem by Walt Whitman, cited by Elizabeth Gilbert for its description of being both in and out of life's game.
The district in San Francisco associated with the counterculture movement of the 1960s, which Jack Kornfield experienced during the 'Summer of Love'.
A colleague and friend of Jack Kornfield, who interviewed Gary Snyder.
A book by Jack Kornfield on Buddhist psychology, recommended as a starting point.
A central figure in the movement to end slavery in the British Empire, honored by Quakers.
A delicious sugar-free electrolyte drink mix used by Tim Ferris, recommended for electrolyte needs, especially for those on keto, low-carb, or paleo diets, or engaging in endurance exercise. Contains no sugar, artificial ingredients, or coloring.
An old professor from Harvard who taught Asian philosophy at Dartmouth, influencing Jack Kornfield's shift to Asian studies.
Jack Kornfield's primary spiritual teacher in Thailand, described as funny, wise, warm-hearted, strict, and demanding.
The creator of Judo, perceived by Tim Ferris as a wise martial arts master who could manage powerful energy and be benevolent.
Chairman of Ford Motor Company, a meditator who sought Jack Kornfield's guidance during a period of crisis for the auto industry.
A simple book by Jack Kornfield with stories and practices, recommended for those starting their journey.
A best-selling book authored by Robb Wolf.
A hospital or medical facility where Rhea Elias had been.
An organization where Jack Kornfield met Dan Goleman.
A psychologist and writer known for his advocacy of psychedelic drugs, who was hired and later fired by David McClelland at Harvard.
A book written by Dan Goleman that sold 10 million copies.
Associated with Mosaic Multicultural Foundation, works with Michael Meade.
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