What is the 'core gameplay loop' and how does it make a game successful?

The 'core gameplay loop' is the repeated action players perform in a game. Elan Lee believes the most successful games have loops that aren't inherently entertaining themselves but rather make the players entertain each other. For Exploding Kittens, it's Russian roulette with a twist: players strategically place the 'bullet' (Exploding Kitten card) to outthink opponents, making player interaction the central fun.

How did Exploding Kittens achieve such massive success on Kickstarter?

Exploding Kittens leveraged Matt Inman's (The Oatmeal creator) established audience, getting funded in seven minutes and raising millions initially. When funding plateaued, they innovated by creating 'CROWDfunding' stretch goals that asked backers for insane, fun challenges (e.g., photos of 'Tacocats') instead of more money. This activated the community, generating massive buzz and resulting in over 700,000 backers.

What common mistakes do new creators make on crowdfunding platforms like Kickstarter?

Many creators make the mistake of branching out into too many different products (like T-shirts or posters) as stretch goals, rather than focusing on fulfilling the core product. This often leads to logistical nightmares with manufacturing, fulfillment, and customer service, ultimately causing companies to fail despite raising significant capital.

What are Exploding Kittens' core design principles for their games?

Exploding Kittens prioritizes accessibility (easy to learn, often with video instructions rather than rulebooks), making players entertaining each other, simplicity (games shouldn't feel 'fragile' or easily broken by rule misinterpretations), and aesthetic beauty to create a sense of joy and shareability. This ensures games are tools for social connection and fun.

What are some fundamental tabletop game genres a designer should know?

Elan Lee highlights several genres: fill-in-the-blank games (like Cards Against Humanity) which focus on reassembling jokes for humor; deck-building games (like Dominion) where players collect powerful cards; collectible trading card games (like Pokémon or Magic: The Gathering); physical dexterity games (like Throw Throw Burrito) which involve physical actions; and resource management/trading games (like Settlers of Catan), which can also be highly social.

Who is Jordan Weisman and what key lessons did Elan Lee learn from him?

Jordan Weisman is Elan Lee's mentor, a renowned game designer and pioneer in virtual reality. Lee learned 'nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd' and 'don't overthink this, just go' (the 'violin and barn' philosophy). Weisman inspired the concept of using immersive storytelling to empower communities, as seen in the first alternate reality game 'The Beast' to promote the movie 'AI'.

How did the 'AI' movie tie-in games lead to the first Alternate Reality Game, 'The Beast'?

Elan Lee's team was hired by Steven Spielberg to develop four Xbox games for his movie 'AI'. However, the film's depressing ending made the games unmarketable. Instead of canceling completely, Elan and Jordan Weisman decided to take the 'glue' narrative written for the games, cut it into pieces, spread them across the real world, and let players reassemble the story, culminating in the movie's launch. This became 'The Beast'.

How is Elan Lee applying a 'Pixar model' to children's games?

Elan Lee observed that many children's games are unenjoyable for parents. His 'Pixar model' approach aims to create games that both kids and parents love, offering different but equally engaging experiences. He designs games with his five-year-old daughter, ensuring she wins and has fun while he still tries his hardest. Several of these co-designed games are slated for retail release.

What challenges did Exploding Kittens face with international shipping and distribution?

Exploding Kittens encountered significant difficulties, such as dealing with 700,000 orders after initially expecting a few thousand. One notable challenge was with Russia, where customs destroyed imported games, marking them as delivered. High shipping costs and unexpected duties (like those in Canada) also created problems and customer dissatisfaction, highlighting the complexity for new game designers.

Why did Exploding Kittens transition from external outsourcing to an 'end-to-end house' model?

Initially, Exploding Kittens outsourced manufacturing, logistics, sales, and marketing. Matt and Elan decided to learn every aspect of the business themselves, failing and then hiring smart people to fill gaps internally. This vertical integration allows them unique control over production, distribution, and marketing, enabling custom solutions like special retail displays and direct retailer conversations that are uncommon in the industry.

How did The Chernin Group's investment help Exploding Kittens evolve?

The $40 million investment from The Chernin Group, though largely untouched, was strategic. It signaled a move from a game company to an intellectual property company, with Peter Chernin guiding them toward TV shows, movies, and theme parks. Partner Jesse Jacobs imposed much-needed discipline, forcing them to define goals, hire a CFO, and build robust internal systems, transforming their operations.

What is Elan Lee's philosophy for choosing collaboration partners for new games?

Elan Lee seeks partners who genuinely love their audiences, not just view them as a means to financial gain. He looks for collaborators who would continue to entertain their audience even if there were no monetary reward, indicating a shared vision for joy creation. This discerning approach ensures effective partnerships for new game development.

What are the dangers of social media algorithms for content creators?

Elan Lee and Tim Ferriss warn that algorithms can seduce creators into becoming extreme caricatures of themselves, rewarding increasingly dramatic or polarizing content. This can trap creators in a 'mask' personality and make them psycho-emotionally vulnerable if the platform throttles their organic reach or financial incentives, as they don't own direct communication channels to their audience.

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TL;DR

Exploding Kittens co-creator Elan Lee on game design, community, and the art of crowdfunding.

Key Insights

The core gameplay loop is the most crucial element of a game, focusing on how players entertain each other rather than the game entertaining players.

Kickstarter success hinges on leveraging community engagement and creative 'stretch goals' that incentivize participation beyond monetary contributions.

True game design involves creating tools for player interaction, prioritizing simplicity, delight in unboxing, and a focus on the players themselves.

Building a sustainable company requires mastering all aspects of the business, from logistics to marketing, and not relying solely on external partners.

Mentorship, particularly from figures like Jordan Weisman, provides invaluable lessons on community, action, and embracing challenges.

Prioritizing user experience and community is key, from game design to investor relations, ensuring a focus on shared vision and genuine connection.

THE BIRTH OF POETRY FOR NEANDERTHALS: FROM CONCEPT TO MONOSYLLABIC FUN

Elan Lee details the genesis of 'Poetry for Neanderthals,' starting with friends' idea of a game simulating learning a new language with single-syllable word constraints. The development process involved iterative refinement, reducing sentence length and game complexity until the core loop emerged: get a friend to say a word using only single syllables. This focus on a simple, player-entertaining loop, rather than complex mechanics, proved key. The game's unique name and the addition of humor through the 'Neanderthal club' for rule-breakers further solidified its appeal, demonstrating how a strong, simple concept can become a fun and accessible game.

DECONSTRUCTING THE CORE GAMEPLAY LOOP: THE HEART OF ENGAGEMENT

Lee emphasizes the critical importance of the 'core gameplay loop' in game design. He defines it as the repetitive action that forms the game's foundation, such as Russian roulette with Exploding Kittens or the lock-and-key mechanism of UNO. He stresses that the most compelling loops are those that enable players to entertain each other, fostering interaction and memorable experiences, rather than games that solely focus on entertaining the player. This principle stems from Lee's own childhood experiences, where the connections formed through games were more significant than the games themselves.

THE EXPLODING KITTENS KICKSTARTER PHENOMENON: COMMUNITY OVER CASH

The record-breaking Kickstarter campaign for Exploding Kittens is a testament to Elan Lee's deep understanding of community. Leveraging Matt Inman's (The Oatmeal) established audience, the campaign exceeded its $10,000 goal within minutes, eventually raising nearly $9 million. Lee's innovative 'crowd-funding' approach, using stretch goals centered on community challenges (e.g., submitting photos of 'tacocats') rather than just monetary targets, transformed the campaign into a participatory event. This strategy amplified engagement and sustained momentum, proving that activating a community can be more powerful than simply asking for money.

BUILDING A SUSTAINABLE GAME COMPANY: FOCUS AND VERTICAL INTEGRATION

Exploding Kittens' success is attributed to a deliberate focus on core competencies and vertical integration. Lee explains that while initially outsourcing many functions, the company eventually brought operations like sales, marketing, and logistics in-house, hiring experts to build these teams. This control allows for unique product development, such as the intentionally durable packaging that prioritizes long-term value over immediate margin savings. This end-to-end approach enables innovation and maintains the company's commitment to quality and player experience, differentiating them in a crowded market.

THE WISDOM OF MENTORS: LESSONS FROM JORDAN WEISMAN AND THE POWER OF ACTION

Elan Lee highlights the profound impact of his mentor, Jordan Weisman, a legendary game designer. Weisman instilled key principles, including 'nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd' and the mantra 'You've got a violin, I've got a barn. Let's put on a show.' This philosophy emphasizes taking action, learning through doing, and the power of community. Weisman's guidance was instrumental in Lee's career, from his early days at Microsoft on the Xbox team to co-founding alternate reality game companies. This mentorship underscores the value of learning by embracing challenges and building collaboratively.

DESIGNING FOR DELIGHT: THE PLAYER EXPERIENCE FROM UNBOXING TO PLAY

A central tenet of Exploding Kittens' design philosophy is ensuring that opening a game box is a delightful experience in itself. Lee emphasizes that every component, from the quality of the cards to the durability of the box, must feel cherished and well-crafted. This dedication to quality serves as a crucial ask for players to invest time, potentially learning complex rules. Furthermore, the company prioritizes games that allow players to entertain each other, focusing on simple, quick setups, intuitive gameplay (often supported by video tutorials rather than lengthy rulebooks), and games that foster genuine social interaction and joy.

THE ART OF CONVERSION: TURNING CASUAL FANS INTO DEVOTED ADVOCATES

Lee explains that converting casual fans into super fans involves actively shining a spotlight on their contributions. During the Exploding Kittens Kickstarter, acknowledging custom submissions with updates like 'Look what YOU did' rather than 'Look what we did,' fostered a sense of community ownership. This approach taps into the power of collective action and validation, making participants feel valued and encouraging continued engagement. This philosophy extends to business partnerships, where collaborations are sought with individuals who genuinely love and respect their audiences, fostering mutual growth and shared success.

NAVIGATING INVESTORS AND GROWTH: THE STRATEGY BEHIND EXPANSION

The investment from The Chernin Group marked a significant milestone for Exploding Kittens, shifting the company's perspective from a game creator to an intellectual property powerhouse. Lee emphasizes the importance of selecting partners who share the company's vision and can help expand its reach into new media like TV and film. While the $40 million investment provided resources, the key was retaining control and leveraging investor expertise, such as training in financial management and board governance. This strategic approach allows the company to grow responsibly while staying true to its core values.

THE FUTURE OF PLAY: CHILDREN'S GAMES AND THE DESIRE FOR JOYFUL INTERACTIONS

Lee expresses frustration with the current state of children's games, finding them largely unenjoyable for adults. He observed this firsthand with his own children, which sparked a desire to create games that offer a different, more engaging experience for both kids and parents. This has led to collaborative game design with his young daughter, focusing on creating tools for mutual enjoyment and empowering children to 'win' through genuine engagement rather than artificial handicapping. The ultimate vision is to develop and release these co-designed games, offering a fresh perspective on family play and creative collaboration.

THE ENDURING APPEAL OF GAMES: A SOURCE OF JOY AND CONNECTION

Reflecting on his career, Elan Lee consistently returns to the idea that games are fundamentally about creating joy and facilitating human connection. Whether it's watching strangers play Exploding Kittens in an airport or seeing families engage with 'Poetry for Neanderthals,' the true success lies in witnessing people entertain each other. This perspective fuels his passion, likening the continuous creation of engaging experiences to an 'eternal dopamine factory.' He emphasizes that this drive isn't about novelty but about the fundamental human need for shared positive experiences, a pursuit he finds endlessly rewarding.

Mentioned in This Episode

●Products

●Software & Apps

●Companies

●Organizations

●Books

●Concepts

●People Referenced

Common Questions

Poetry for Neanderthals started as an idea where players speak in single-syllable words. Initially, it involved complex sentences, but through a year of playtesting, the game was simplified to focus on describing one word at a time with monosyllabic cues. The addition of a "no stick" (inflatable club) for breaking rules and funny word choices further refined the gameplay, making it easier to learn and more entertaining for players.

Topics

Intellectual Property Business & Entrepreneurship Social Media Psychology Creativity & Media Marketing Innovation Game Design Crowdfunding Strategy Startup Growth Mindset & Self-Improvement Community Building

Mentioned in this video

Companies

Fourth Wall Studios

A company founded by Elan Lee where he served as Chief Creative Officer.

Xbox Entertainment Studios

Where Elan Lee served as Chief Design Officer, leading the interactive entertainment portfolio before founding Exploding Kittens.

Industrial Light & Magic

A special effects company where Elan Lee had an influential internship, working on Star Wars.

Exploding Kittens

A leading gaming and entertainment company co-created by Elan Lee, having sold over 20 million games in 50+ countries. Known for its card game where the core gameplay loop involves Russian roulette with a deck of cards where players can decide where to place the 'bullet'.

Warner Bros.

Film studio that funded the marketing of Steven Spielberg's movie 'AI', for which Elan Lee and Jordan Weisman developed the first alternate reality game to promote.

Microsoft Games Studios

Where Elan Lee began his career as a lead designer on the original Xbox.

Amazon

An e-commerce giant that quickly surpassed Exploding Kittens' direct-to-consumer sales, partly due to the massive initial demand and the platform's search algorithms.

The Chernin Group

An investment group led by Peter Chernin that provided a strategic investment to Exploding Kittens, helping them expand into intellectual property, TV shows, and movies. Known for investing in companies like Food52, MeatEater, Scopely, and Hello Sunshine.

Hodinkee

A watch-focused company in The Chernin Group's portfolio, formerly led by Kevin Rose.

Pixar

Animation studio known for creating content that appeals to both children and adults, serving as a model for Elan Lee's approach to designing kids' games that parents also enjoy.

Target

A major retailer that partnered with Exploding Kittens to build out their games departments, offering deals for smaller box sizes with larger display shippers.

Netflix

Streaming service that will host the upcoming Exploding Kittens TV show, executive produced by Greg Daniels, Mike Judge, and Peter Chernin.

42 Entertainment

A company co-founded by Elan Lee, known for building alternate reality games.

Walmart

A major retailer that partnered with Exploding Kittens to build out their games departments, offering deals for smaller box sizes with larger display shippers.

Scopely

A mobile games company in The Chernin Group's portfolio, which Tim Ferriss has been looking into.

Twitter

A social media platform mentioned as something Tim Ferriss reinstalled for a specific purpose but intends to remove for mental health reasons.

Rooster Teeth

An entertainment company in The Chernin Group's portfolio, whose offices Tim Ferriss has visited.

Food52

A company in The Chernin Group's portfolio, known by Tim Ferriss.

Hello Sunshine

A media company founded by Reese Witherspoon, part of The Chernin Group's portfolio with successful outcomes.

Products

Hand-To-Hand Wombat

A game whose designers were interviewed by Elan Lee, providing insight into the game design process.

Joking Hazard

A fill-in-the-blank game, cited as a popular example of making players laugh by reassembling pre-written jokes.

Poetry for Neanderthals

A card game co-created by Elan Lee, where players must describe words using only single-syllable words; breaking the rule results in being bonked with an inflatable club. It's designed to make players entertain each other.

Cards Against Humanity

A fill-in-the-blank game, cited as a popular example of making players laugh by reassembling pre-written jokes.

iPhone

A smartphone by Apple, used as an example of a product with high-quality, disposable packaging, contrasted with game boxes which need to be durable despite low cost.

What Do You Meme

A fill-in-the-blank game, cited as a popular example of making players laugh by reassembling pre-written jokes.

Throw Throw Burrito

A physical dexterity game from Exploding Kittens that combines card collecting with dodgeball, involving throwing soft burritos at other players.

SET

A card game Elan Lee believes feels 'natural' and operates on pattern recognition. He used to play it with his younger sister who would often win.

Monopoly

A classic board game, mentioned as an example of a game typically found in limited game sections of retailers before the expansion of game departments, also categorized under resource management games.

Apples to Apples

A fill-in-the-blank game, cited as a popular example of making players laugh by reassembling pre-written jokes.

Connect Four

A classic board game, mentioned as an example of a game typically found in limited game sections of retailers before the expansion of game departments.

Backgammon

A classic board game, mentioned by Tim Ferriss as a game he has played.

Japanese Chess

A strategy board game (Shogi), mentioned by Tim Ferriss as a game he has played.

Candy Land

A children's board game Elan Lee dislikes playing due to its simplistic and unengaging nature for adults, leading him to rethink kids' game design.

Media

Dirty Work

A series for which Elan Lee won a Primetime Emmy.

Pokemon Go

A mobile game mentioned as a potential fad that game designers might chase, illustrating the risk of following trends without deep understanding.

BattleTech

A game designed by Jordan Weisman, one of his notable creations.

Crimson Skies

A game designed by Jordan Weisman, one of his notable creations.

MeatEater

A company in The Chernin Group's portfolio, known by Tim Ferriss as the platform Steven Rinella is associated with.

Settlers of Catan

A resource management and trading game that Elan Lee considers a social game focused on player interactions rather than just resource collection, as some designers perceive it.

Dungeons & Dragons

A complex tabletop role-playing game that Elan Lee admits to never having played, but Tim Ferriss shares was a defining part of his childhood for co-creating narratives and fostering friendships.

Halo

A video game mentioned as a project Elan Lee helped design during his time at Microsoft Xbox.

Beavis and Butt-Head

A show created by Mike Judge, referenced in the discussion of the executive producers for the Exploding Kittens Netflix show.

Stranger Things

A TV series referenced by Tim Ferriss as an analogy for the banded-together dynamic of his D&D childhood group.

Appetite for Destruction

The debut album by Guns N' Roses, referenced to illustrate the success of a major brand.

Star Wars

A film franchise for which Elan Lee worked on the connective tissue of Jar Jar Binks' neck during an internship at Industrial Light & Magic.

Think Like a Game Designer

A podcast featuring an episode where Justin Gary interviewed Elan Lee, recommended for those interested in Elan's bio.

Chess

A classic strategy game, mentioned by Tim Ferriss as a game he has played.

Pokemon

A collectible trading card game, mentioned as a popular genre but one Elan Lee has not personally played.

Office Space

A film associated with Mike Judge, referenced in the discussion of the executive producers for the Exploding Kittens Netflix show.

Magic: The Gathering

A collectible trading card game, mentioned as a popular genre that Elan Lee has not personally played, but Justin Gary is noted as an expert in.

The Office

A show associated with Greg Daniels, referenced in the discussion of the executive producers for the Exploding Kittens Netflix show.

Software & Apps

The Oatmeal

A website (theoatmeal.com) created by Matt Inman, featuring short and long-form comedy comics and social commentary. Its audience played a crucial role in the initial success of Exploding Kittens' Kickstarter.

An abstract strategy board game, mentioned by Tim Ferriss as a game he has played.

Kickstarter

A crowdfunding platform used by Exploding Kittens to launch their initial game, which raised almost $9 million against a $10,000 target.

Steven Spielberg's movie about an android boy, for which Elan Lee's team initially designed video games that were later canceled due to the film's depressing ending, leading to the creation of 'The Beast' ARG.

Google Sheets

A spreadsheet program, used by Elan Lee for all financial tracking during the first five years of Exploding Kittens before hiring a CFO.

People

George W. Bush

Former US President, whose second term win sparked a conversation between Elan Lee and Jordan Weisman about the public's engagement in voting.

Stanley Kubrick

Legendary film director who co-collaborated with Steven Spielberg on the 'AI' movie script.

Justin Gary

Game designer and host of the 'Think Like A Game Designer' podcast, known for his expertise in collectible trading card games like Magic: The Gathering.

Reese Witherspoon

Actress and founder of Hello Sunshine, a successful media company in The Chernin Group's portfolio.

Penn & Teller

Famous magician and entertainment duo, one half of whom (Penn Jillette) collaborated with Exploding Kittens on a game.

Steven Rinella

Host of MeatEater, who took Tim Ferriss on his first hunt in Alaska.

Kevin Rose

Friend of Tim Ferriss and former CEO of Hodinkee.

Brian Spence

A game designer who joined Jacob and Francesca in refining the concept for 'Poetry For Neanderthals'.

Matt Inman

Co-founder of Exploding Kittens and creator of The Oatmeal, responsible for the game's name 'Poetry For Neanderthals' and the artistic/comedic flair.

Jordan Weisman

Elan Lee's mentor, a famous game designer known for BattleTech and Crimson Skies, and a pioneer in virtual reality. Weisman is praised for his ability to empower communities and his 'nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd' philosophy.

John Adams

A Founding Father of the United States, whose historic role was paralleled by a character named Adam (the bass player) in Jordan Weisman's clothing-based episodic game.

Jar Jar Binks

A character from the Star Wars universe on whose neck connectivity Elan Lee worked during his internship.

Elan Lee

Co-creator and CEO of Exploding Kittens, previously Chief Design Officer at Xbox Entertainment Studios and co-founder of Fourth Wall Studios and 42 Entertainment. Won a Primetime Emmy, Peabody Award, and IndieCade Trailblazer Award for his work in interactive entertainment.

Guns N' Roses

A famous rock band, used as an analogy for how an established brand like Exploding Kittens operates differently from a startup.

Peter Chernin

A Hollywood legend and head of The Chernin Group (TCG) who made a strategic investment in Exploding Kittens, guiding the company to become an intellectual property company rather than solely a game company.

Greg Daniels

Executive producer for the upcoming Exploding Kittens Netflix show, known for his work on 'The Office' and 'King of the Hill'.

Sean Stewart

An incredible writer hired by Elan Lee and Jordan Weisman to write the 'glue' narrative for the AI movie games, which later became the story for 'The Beast' alternate reality game.

Jesse Jacobs

A partner at The Chernin Group, described as one of the smartest people Elan Lee has met. He provided crucial guidance and discipline to Exploding Kittens regarding business operations and growth strategy.

Thomas Jefferson

A Founding Father of the United States, whose historic role was paralleled by a character named Jeff (the band leader) in Jordan Weisman's clothing-based episodic game.

Steven Spielberg

Famous film director who contracted Jordan Weisman's company to market his movie 'AI', which led to Elan Lee's team developing the world's first alternate reality game.

Mike Judge

Executive producer for the upcoming Exploding Kittens Netflix show, known for creating 'Beavis and Butt-Head', 'King of the Hill', and 'Office Space'.

Penn Jillette

Half of the magic duo Penn & Teller, with whom Exploding Kittens collaborated on a game. Elan Lee admired his 'amazing brain'.

Concepts

Tacocat

A character in the Exploding Kittens game (half cat, half taco) used as a thematic element for community challenges during the Kickstarter campaign.

alternate reality games

A genre of games, central to Elan Lee's background, where the premise is 'together you are stronger' and a convoluted story is pieced together from fragments hidden in the real world and online.

Vote

The act of voting, which Jordan Weisman created a clothing company game around to encourage voter registration and address public apathy.

The Beast

The world's first alternate reality game, for which Elan Lee won a Peabody Award. It involved delivering a convoluted story through various real-world and internet fragments.

Books

Player's Handbook

The first edition of the D&D Player's Handbook, owned by Tim Ferriss, signifying the in-depth nature of the game.

Dopamine Nation

A book by Dr. Anna Lembke about understanding dopamine and addiction.

Dominion

A popular deck-building game recommended by Elan Lee as a good starting point for learning the genre.

Dungeon Master's Guide

The first edition of the D&D Dungeon Master's Guide, owned by Tim Ferriss, highlighting the complexity and depth of D&D.

Organizations

Rock the Vote

A non-profit organization promoting voter registration, mentioned as the type of events players of Jordan Weisman's clothing-based game engaged with.