Key Moments
B.J. Novak Interview (Full Episode) | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)
Tim FerrissKey Moments
B.J. Novak discusses his creative process, career path from Harvard to The Office, and the launch of his app, List.
Key Insights
The Harvard Lampoon fostered rigorous comedy training, producing many successful writers.
Early career choices involve balancing artistic integrity with practical opportunities.
Developing a strong creative process involves separating idea generation from execution.
Authenticity and understanding the audience are key to effective comedy.
The List app aims to create a social platform for sharing and discovering curated lists.
Success requires getting attention and then backing it up with solid execution.
THE HARVARD LAMPoon'S COMEdY TRAINING GROUND
B.J. Novak highlights the unique role of the Harvard Lampoon in cultivating comedy writing talent. This prestigious humor magazine, funded by William Randolph Hearst, provided a rigorous, competitive environment where young writers honed their skills through constant feedback and critique. This intensive training system, unlike traditional academic paths, equipped graduates with a strong foundation in comedic writing, making it a viable career choice and paving the way for many to work on major shows like 'The Simpsons' and 'SNL.'
NAVIGATING CAREER CHOICES AND ARTISTIC INTEGRITY
Novak recounts the pivotal decision to accept a writing job on 'Raising Dad,' a network sitcom, shortly before graduating from Harvard. While he harbored dreams of being a 'starving artist' making edgy independent films, he recognized the practical advantage and privilege of the offered opportunity. This experience illuminated a paradox: the guilt associated with turning down lucrative offers versus artistic integrity, a common dilemma for successful individuals navigating creative fields.
TRANSITIONING FROM SITCOM WRITING TO STAND-UP COMEDY
After 'Raising Dad' was canceled, Novak pursued stand-up comedy, viewing it as a more direct path to a unique comedic voice, inspired by then-show creator Bob Saget and Jonathan Katz. His early stand-up experiences were challenging, including a disastrous first set about 9/11 to a non-English speaking audience. However, by committing to consistent performance and refining material based on audience reaction, he gradually developed his act and began performing in respected venues.
THE UNEXPECTED SUCCESS OF 'THE OFFICE'
Novak discusses his casting in 'The Office' through Greg Daniels, who sought writer-actors. Initially, the show was a risky, experimental project with a bleak tone and a remake of a British series with a history of failed US adaptations. Despite a low expectation of success, the lean, talented writing staff and actors created a unique comedic voice. Its viral spread through early online platforms like iTunes, particularly among a young, tech-savvy audience, was the tipping point for its eventual widespread popularity.
DEVELOPING A CREATIVE PROCESS: IDEAS VS. EXECUTION
A core principle Novak shares is the separation of the 'idea phase' from the 'execution phase.' He advocates for dedicated periods of 'blue sky' brainstorming without judgment, followed by focused work on developing the best concepts. This approach is supported by his habit of meticulously recording ideas in notebooks and later tackling them systematically, ensuring that creativity isn't stifled by premature self-censorship or the pressure of immediate implementation.
THE REVOLUTION OF THE LIST APP AND SOCIAL SHARING
Novak's current venture, the List app (l.st), aims to revolutionize how people share and discover curated lists. Inspired by a personal need to share recommendations, the app provides a social platform for various lists, from favorite restaurants to writing prompts. He emphasizes the importance of a strong co-founder, Dev Flaherty, in bringing the concept to fruition, highlighting how technology enables new forms of content creation and community building by focusing on the idea and its reception.
LESSONS IN COMEDY: OBSERvATION AND THE 'RED DOOR KNOB' EFFECT
Novak delves into the mechanics of comedy, stressing the currency of astute observations that resonate with an audience. He likens great comedy to a mystery, where the punchline reveals something obvious yet previously unnoticed—the 'red doorknob' effect. He cites comedians like Aziz Ansari and Louis C.K. for their skill in finding humor in the everyday and making the familiar feel new, highlighting how relatable observations can fuel compelling content.
ADVICE FOR ASPIRING COMEDY WRITERS
For aspiring comedy writers, Novak advises a two-pronged approach: first, capture attention through unique content or connections, and second, demonstrate the ability to execute. This involves creating compelling work, like a spec script for a favorite show, to prove proficiency in the craft. He encourages mischief, humor, and surrounding oneself with funny people, emphasizing that while a talent for writing is crucial, understanding the industry and demonstrating reliability are equally important for career progression.
THE IMPORTANCE OF ENJOYING THE MOMENT
Reflecting on his time on 'The Office,' Novak wished he had savored the experience more, instead of being solely focused on simultaneously pursuing side projects. He learned the value of fully inhabiting and enjoying significant career moments, realizing that talent and hard work provide agency to pursue future opportunities. This lesson, echoed by Stephen King's advice to Neil Gaiman, underscores the importance of presence and appreciation in navigating a creative career.
Mentioned in This Episode
●Products
●Software & Apps
●Companies
●Organizations
●Books
●People Referenced
Common Questions
BJ Novak explains that Harvard Lampoon is a unique comedy magazine with a rigorous training system. It fosters intelligent young people, pushing them to critically evaluate jokes and constantly refine their comedy writing. This strict environment, along with historical examples of successful alumni, makes it a powerful training ground and normalizes a career in comedy writing.
Topics
Mentioned in this video
Actress who starred in 'Raising Dad' at the beginning of her career.
Business leader whose memoir BJ Novak's father ghostwrote.
Political commentator and TV host whose books BJ Novak's father worked on.
Actor whom BJ Novak replaced on the show 'Punk'd'.
A friend of Devon who is on American Ninja Warrior and has an incredible workout facility in his garage.
Funded the building for the Harvard Lampoon.
An iconic hero in the comic book world who previously held BJ Novak's position as graphics editor at the Princeton Tiger.
A comedian known for family-friendly roles but secretly a filthy standup comic, whom BJ Novak invited to perform at Harvard.
Bob Saget's manager who later became BJ Novak's manager.
Actress who starred in 'Raising Dad' at the beginning of her career.
Creator of 'Dr. Katz, Professional Therapist' who visited the 'Raising Dad' writer's room and inspired BJ Novak to try standup.
Journalist and TV host with whom BJ Novak's father worked on two books.
Lead actor in 'The Office' (US) whose improvisations were brilliant and taught BJ Novak about comedy stemming from authenticity.
An abstract one-liner comic whom BJ Novak tried to see whenever possible in LA.
Comedian and actor who was a top choice on Jenna Martin's list of favorite Howard Stern interviews.
Musician, one of the top recommended accounts to follow on the List App.
Writer cited as the first person who comes to mind when thinking of 'successful' due to his moving, permanent, and popular works.
Naturalist whose daily routine is mentioned as an example in a book on daily rituals.
Former Speaker of the House whose memoir BJ Novak's father ghostwrote.
Writer on 'The Office' (US) and good friend of BJ Novak.
A well-known athletic trainer who coined the term 'cup of fear' for self-loathing plus caffeine.
Filmmaker and comedian who said he identifies primarily as a writer.
A friend of BJ Novak who worked at Facebook and gave him a tour, sparking his interest in tech.
Radio personality whose interviews are a popular topic on the List App, with specific favorites like Lady Gaga and Billy Joel.
Musician, surprisingly dark and funny, who was a top choice on Jenna Martin's list of favorite Howard Stern interviews.
Television personality and chef, one of the top recommended accounts to follow on the List App.
Actor mentioned as an example that successful people can take breaks without losing attention, assuring younger writers to take their time.
Author who advised Neil Gaiman to 'enjoy' his success.
Comedian who killed on stage with an impression of him taking a dump.
Television host on whose show BJ Novak got booked.
Writer of 'Wild' and a popular user on the List App who created a list of writing prompts and a moving list of objects found in her deceased mother's car.
A user on the List App who made a list of favorite Howard Stern interviews.
Television host, one of the top recommended accounts to follow on the List App.
Television host, one of the top recommended accounts to follow on the List App.
Author whose daily routine is mentioned as an example in a book on daily rituals.
Actor starring in 'The Grinder'.
Historical figure BJ Novak aspires to be like, starting in comedy writing and achieving great things while maintaining wit.
Basketball legend whose memoir BJ Novak's father ghostwrote.
Former 'The Nightly Show' host who was part of the original lean writing group for 'The Office' (US).
Writer whose article on creativity in groups versus solo work came to a similar conclusion as BJ Novak's idea/execution separation.
Creator of Firefox and an investor in The List App, known for his terrific writing and software development skills.
A former National Lampoon editor who said he would assign parodies if he taught English.
A comedian known for his observational humor and wordplay.
A VC at Flybridge who took BJ Novak's List App idea seriously and introduced him to his co-founder, Dev Flaherty.
Co-founder of the List App, previously Head of Product at Fab and worked for a map-based travel startup, perfect match for BJ Novak.
Comedian, noted as a great interviewer, who was a top choice on Jenna Martin's list of favorite Howard Stern interviews.
Rapper, one of the top recommended accounts to follow on the List App.
Actor whom BJ Novak admires for his good looks and how it allows him to pursue diverse interests without judgment.
Author and graphic novel writer (Sandman) who received advice from Stephen King to enjoy his success, something he struggled with.
A director whose style, particularly 'Pulp Fiction', was a fantasy for many aspiring filmmakers.
Celebrity on whom BJ Novak performed a prank for 'Punk'd'.
Comedian with a brilliant bit about marriage that illustrates the 'red doorknob effect' in comedy.
Musician who was apparently a top choice on Jenna Martin's list of favorite Howard Stern interviews.
Apple co-founder whose daily routine is mentioned as an example in a book on daily rituals.
Actor starring in 'The Grinder'.
First Lady whose memoir BJ Novak's father ghostwrote.
Cofounder and co-writer of 'The Office' (UK), whose approach inspired Greg Daniels for the US version.
Comedian brilliant at pointing out things people felt but never articulated.
Dev Flaherty's wife, a fantastic television writer who moved to LA for a big HBO writing job, which helped Dev commit to the List App.
Subject of a Washington Post list on the List App, detailing various boycotts he called for, ironically including one against his own clothing line.
Actor who was a top choice on Jenna Martin's list of favorite Howard Stern interviews.
Chef and author who created a funny list on the List App 'Hotel F**ks' about hotels he enjoys staying in, also featured in the recommended accounts.
Musician for whom a rap was originally written for an 'Usher' prank, but he passed on it.
Creator of 'The Office' (US version) who saw BJ Novak perform standup and hired him as a writer/actor.
Actor who played Toby on 'The Office' (US) and was also part of its lean writing staff.
Author of 'Daily Rituals', a book that BJ Novak found demoralizing due to the early rising habits of many great people, but also encouraging due to their dysfunctions.
Comedian who is 'really good at wordplay' and observational humor.
Director whose films (like 'Memento' and 'Inception') BJ Novak finds cold, formal, and unpleasurable, despite their acclaim.
Musician and actress who was a top choice on Jenna Martin's list of favorite Howard Stern interviews.
Musician who was a top choice on Jenna Martin's list of favorite Howard Stern interviews, noted as a great one.
Actress and writer who created a memorable list on the List App called 'Dead People I'd Have Sex With,' also featured in the recommended accounts.
An automated investing service led by technologists, managing over $2.5 billion, offering services previously reserved for the ultra-wealthy at a fraction of the cost through smart software.
Company behind WordPress.com, advised by Tim Ferriss, known for its distributed workforce of 400+ people.
Bob Saget's management company, which BJ Novak contacted to book him for the Harvard show.
Platform expected to remove layers of 'noise' in entertainment by direct access to content based on quality, not network.
Social media platform that inspired the vertical feed design of the List App.
Social media platform that inspired the vertical feed design of the List App and where BJ Novak shares updates.
Venture capital firm where Matt Cohler was a VC, though the firm generally doesn't do this kind of thing, he was interested in the List App.
Web browser invented by Blake Ross.
A New York-based company BJ Novak hired to create mockups for the List App, helping him visualize and pitch the idea.
E-commerce company where Dev Flaherty served as Head of Product.
Social media company where BJ Novak got a tour and saw how creative ideas could be tested and scaled.
Satellite radio service, with channel 35 playing indie music, part of BJ Novak's morning routine.
A comedy debate podcast featuring well-educated comedy writers debating trivial and bizarre topics.
A serious debate podcast, described as the serious version of 'The Great Debates'.
A long-running animated TV show that many Harvard Lampoon graduates went on to write for.
The show where Greg Daniels had worked and had a good experience with a small writing and acting team, informing his approach to 'The Office'.
A variety show in parody of a variety show that BJ Novak created and put on at Harvard during his senior year.
A family sitcom parodied in 'The BJ Show' with 'The Lost Episode of Full House'.
A hidden camera practical joke show where BJ Novak was cast, replacing Dax Shepard.
A classic film that likely broke film form in its time, on BJ Novak's top 5 personal favorite movies.
Christopher Nolan's highly acclaimed films that BJ Novak finds unpleasurable and too formal.
A popular TV sitcom that BJ Novak's parents watched every night.
American comedy show where BJ Novak served as a writer, producer, and actor, initially not expected to be successful but became a massive hit.
A Christopher Nolan film that BJ Novak finds unpleasurable and too formal.
Conferences providing short, powerful talks, one of the top recommended accounts to follow on the List App.
A WB show that hired BJ Novak as a staff writer after he helped book Bob Saget, starring Kat Dennings and Brie Larson.
A sketch comedy show that BJ Novak's parents watched, indicating good taste in comedy.
A film by Christopher Nolan that is extremely clever in its premise but BJ Novak wasn't personally moved by the story.
Satirical news organization, one of the top recommended accounts to follow on the List App.
A commercial-free radio show on KCRW (90.7 FM) that plays cool new music, part of BJ Novak's morning routine.
A comedy film that 'does anything for a laugh,' on BJ Novak's top 5 personal favorite movies.
A Christopher Nolan film that BJ Novak, despite his interest in science and writing, found impossible to follow.
A sketch comedy show, with season 4 being brilliant sketch writing according to BJ Novak.
A highly influential film that inspired BJ Novak's fantasy of writing an edgy screenplay that would 'blow Hollywood apart'.
A cool show created by Jonathan Katz on Comedy Central.
A brilliant film that breaks all the rules and comments on them, suggested as a must-watch for aspiring writers.
A movie where the protagonist narrates directly to the camera, on BJ Novak's top 5 personal favorite movies.
Publication that made a trending list on the List App about what NASA picked to explain Earth to aliens.
A TV show starring Rob Lowe and Fred Savage, highly recommended by BJ Novak for its very good writing.
Newspaper BJ Novak reads online, especially on weekends, for his morning routine.
A short email newsletter from Tim Ferriss, sharing cool discoveries, gadgets, articles, and esoteric findings before the weekend.
A one-of-a-kind comedy magazine at Harvard University with its own building, known for rigorously training intelligent young people in comedy writing.
Publication that made a trending list on the List App about things Donald Trump has called for boycotts on.
Radio station that broadcasts 'Morning Becomes Eclectic', a show BJ Novak listens to for music during his morning routine.
A large talent agency that BJ Novak cold-called to find contact information for Bob Saget's management.
Television network on which BJ Novak got booked.
Space agency that made a list of items to explain Earth to aliens on the Voyager missions.
Prominent newspaper, one of the top recommended accounts to follow on the List App.
News network, one of the top recommended accounts to follow on the List App.
Fashion magazine, one of the top recommended accounts to follow on the List App.
Magazine, one of the top recommended accounts to follow on the List App.
Hotel in Miami mentioned on Anthony Bourdain's 'Hotel F**ks' list.
Hotel in New York where BJ Novak met Dev Flaherty for dinner to discuss the List App.
BJ Novak's favorite hotel, which has lists of its best rooms on the List App.
Hotel in Los Angeles mentioned on Anthony Bourdain's 'Hotel F**ks' list.
An incredible graphic novel series by Neil Gaiman that redefined the genre.
A book about independent filmmaking in the 1970s that inspired BJ Novak's early artistic aspirations.
Tim Ferriss's book, which was referenced in an episode of 'The Office' (US) in a specific joke.
Cheryl Strayed's book that was made into a movie.
A book mentioned in relation to P.J. O'Rourke, though he may have only written its introduction.
Shakespearean play that was the subject of BJ Novak's senior thesis, focusing on film interpretations of 'to be or not to be'.
A book mentioned as a frequent gift from BJ Novak, containing well-edited brilliant one-liners from history.
A book by Mason Currey that details the daily habits of creative people, which BJ Novak recommends for anyone creative or ambitious.
A publication written by Benjamin Franklin, a comedic and witty work noted by BJ Novak.
A writing tool recommended by Tim Ferriss, found helpful for books and used by playwrights and screenwriters.
Blogging platform that inspired the vertical feed design of the List App.
Music streaming service BJ Novak uses to listen to early blues as part of his morning routine.
Early word processing software used by BJ Novak's father.
Screenwriting software that BJ Novak uses because 'everyone does'.
BJ Novak's social list-making app, designed as a universal place for people to share and discover lists (e.g., restaurants, movies, writing prompts).
Platform where 'The Office' (US) became an early online hit, leading to its viral spread despite not being a huge NBC hit.
Word processing software BJ Novak uses for his writing, similar to how his father used WordStar.
Example of rentable infrastructure that makes testing ideas in tech cheaper and easier.
Technology magazine, one of the top recommended accounts to follow on the List App.
Blogging platform run by Automattic, an example of a successful distributed tech company.
A type of bourbon that both BJ Novak and Dev Flaherty ordered, further indicating shared taste.
BJ Novak's preferred coffee for 'powering up' in the morning, a Venti black coffee for a standard dose of caffeine.
A thinner version of the Moleskine notebook that BJ Novak uses for jotting down ideas, as it's easier to carry and finish.
The pen that BJ Novak uses for his notebooks.
Space probes that carried a list of items chosen by NASA to explain our world to aliens.
A nice, simple watch with great classic design that both BJ Novak and Dev Flaherty were wearing when they met, signifying shared taste.
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