Sam Harris & Christian Nationalist Doug Wilson FULL EPISODE (443)
Sam HarrisKey Moments
Christian nationalist Doug Wilson discusses faith, creationism, postmillennialism, and secularism's perceived failures.
Key Insights
Wilson identifies as a "biblical absolutist" who interprets scripture naturally, respecting genre, rather than strictly literally.
He is a young-earth creationist, believing the universe is approximately 6,000 years old, and an anti-Darwinist.
Wilson advocates for postmillennialism, believing Christ's return follows a period of Christian victory and global disciple-making.
Christian nationalism, for Wilson, is the conviction that secularism has failed and that society needs a transcendent, Christian grounding.
He differentiates his view from "tainted" forms of Christian nationalism that include white ethno-centrism or antisemitism.
Wilson believes deeply held religious beliefs have implications for law and public life, advocating for a separation of morality and state.
He discusses the biblical basis for capital punishment, the limited role of women in church governance, and the subversion of slavery by early Christianity.
Wilson views atheism as epistemologically unsustainable and contrasts Christian eschatology with secular morality, highlighting the significance of belief in God.
FOUNDATIONS OF FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION
Doug Wilson begins by situating himself within the evangelical tradition, tracing his upbringing and the evolution of the term "evangelical." He identifies as a "biblical absolutist," distinguishing it from literalism. This means taking the Bible naturally, respecting its various genres—history, poetry, apocalyptic literature—as intended by its authors. He believes the Bible is inherent and seeks to understand its intended meaning. This approach informs his views on biblical inheritance, where the Old Testament applies unless superseded by the New Testament, a stance he contrasts with dispensationalism.
CREATIONISM AND MILLENNIAL VIEWS
Wilson firmly identifies as a young-earth creationist, estimating the universe's age at around 6,000 years, and an anti-Darwinist. He acknowledges this position may alienate secular audiences but defends it by questioning the assumed objectivity of cosmological dating. He then explains postmillennialism, contrasting it with premillennialism and amillennialism. For Wilson, postmillennialism entails the gospel's eventual victory, the successful fulfillment of the Great Commission, and the ushering in of a millennium preceding Christ's return, suggesting that human efforts to improve the world are not in vain.
THE FAILURE OF SECULARISM AND THE RISE OF CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM
The core of Wilson's argument for Christian nationalism is the conviction that secularism is a failed project. He posits that governing without reference to a transcendent reality leads to societal breakdown, citing contemporary social issues as evidence. He believes that the post-World War II era represented a high watermark for liberal democratic secularism, but this has since eroded. Christian nationalism, in his view, is the acknowledgment that society needs a confession of dependence on God and Christ for its foundation, necessitating Christians to be more public in their faith.
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE VERSUS MORALITY AND STATE
Wilson clarifies his stance on the separation of church and state, affirming the First Amendment and the concept of keeping religion out of coercive public life. He agrees that secularism doesn't necessitate atheism. However, he draws a firm line at separating morality from the state. He argues that corporate entities, like nations, are moral agents and thus require a moral standard, which he believes can only be reliably derived from a Christian worldview. He expresses skepticism about secular attempts to establish a universal moral code acceptable to all worldviews.
ADDRESSING CONTAMINANTS AND THEOLOGICAL DIVERGENCES
Wilson addresses concerns about "tainted" versions of Christian nationalism, such as those incorporating white ethno-centrism or antisemitism, explicitly disavowing these elements. He positions his work, alongside authors like Stephen Wolfe, as distinct from such "contaminants." He discusses the theological animosity towards Judaism stemming from the rejection of Christ's messiahship, but insists that this does not justify mistreatment, emphasizing love, charity, and persuasion as Christian imperatives.
BIBLICAL SANCTIONS, SOCIAL PROGRESS, AND ETHICAL DILEMMAS
The conversation delves into sensitive biblical passages concerning capital punishment for offenses like homosexuality and adultery. Wilson acknowledges that the Old Testament prescribes capital punishment but views these as maximum, not minimum, penalties, citing historical and biblical examples where they were not applied literally. He argues for a "long game" approach to social issues like slavery, believing the gospel inherently subverts such institutions over time, rather than through immediate abolitionist decrees. He also critiques the secular moral conversation, questioning its independent foundation and suggesting that Christianity offers a more robust ethical framework.
THE ROLE OF WOMEN AND THE CONCEPT OF HOUSEHOLD VOTING
Regarding women's rights, Wilson expresses a preference for a household-based voting system, similar to his church's governance. He suggests that this model, where the head of the household casts the vote, would foster healthier societal bonds than radical individualism. He acknowledges this differs from modern egalitarian views but sees it as a gradual, desirable shift inspired by historical Presbyterian polity, contrasting it with current "atomistic" societal structures.
THE EPISTEMOLOGICAL UNSUSTAINABILITY OF ATHEISM
Wilson critiques atheism from a presuppositionalist standpoint, arguing it is epistemologically unsustainable. He contends that if the universe is merely a chaotic concatenation of atoms, then the very capacity to know anything, including the assertion of atheism, is undermined. He believes a Christian worldview provides the necessary framework for rational thought and knowledge, contrasting it with the inherent uncertainty he sees in a godless cosmos. He views atheism as a collapse of self-understanding and knowledge.
HELL, SUFFERING, AND THE IMPLICATIONS OF CHRISTIAN ESCHATOLOGY
The discussion confronts the nature of hell and suffering within a Christian framework. Wilson asserts that hell is primarily the absence of relationship with God, with suffering as a consequence. He argues that damnation is a deserved consequence of sin, not arbitrary punishment, and that heaven is a gift of grace, making the two outcomes asymmetrical. He engages with the idea that suffering is the ultimate metric in morality, but maintains that the "deserving" of hell, the just deserts, is the most abhorrent aspect. He views this theological framework as providing an ultimate grounding for morality that secularism lacks.
THE DISTINCTIVENESS OF CHRISTIAN MIRACLES AND FAITH
Wilson identifies as a thoroughgoing supernaturalist, accepting biblical miracles as presented. He believes Jesus uniquely embodied the intersection of the spiritual and material worlds, but acknowledges that miracles extend beyond Christ and his apostles, even potentially to non-believers, citing examples from scripture. He differentiates Christian claims by anchoring them to prophecies and Jesus's self-authentication through his life, teachings, and resurrection, following C.S. Lewis's trilemma. He respects other spiritual traditions while maintaining Christ's unique role as the promised Messiah.
Mentioned in This Episode
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Common Questions
Doug Wilson grew up in an evangelical home. He describes himself as a biblical absolutist, taking the Bible naturally according to its genre (history as history, poetry as poetry, apocalyptic as apocalyptic) rather than literally.
Topics
Mentioned in this video
A New Testament book cited for the idea that the kingdom of God is not established by carnal (physical) weapons.
An Old Testament book cited for 'decreation language' applied to the king of Babylon, used by Jesus in Matthew 24.
Cited as an Old Testament book where decreation language is applied to Israel.
Author of 'The Case for Christian Nationalism', published by Canon Press.
U.S. Supreme Court Justice, used as an example in a hypothetical scenario regarding women's voting rights in a household-based system.
Biblical king praised for closing bathhouses and exiling homosexuals without execution.
An abolitionist Christian group to which William Wilberforce belonged.
Supreme Court Justice mentioned for her inability to define 'woman' during confirmation hearings, seen by Doug Wilson as a symptom of secular project failure.
Doug Wilson's publisher, which also published Steven Wolf's book on Christian Nationalism.
Indian guru whose purported miracles (virgin birth, raising the dead, water to wine) are compared by Sam Harris to those attributed to Jesus.
Doug Wilson's new book, which is central to the discussion on Christian nationalism.
A statement of Christian belief that Doug Wilson affirms as the fundamentals of his faith.
A chapter in the New Testament discussing end times prophecies, interpreted by dispensationalists as future and by Doug Wilson as fulfilled in 70 AD.
A school of theology characterized by taking the Bible literally unless absurd, and primarily New Testament-centered.
Biblical king praised for closing bathhouses and exiling homosexuals without execution.
A friend of Doug Wilson who expresses a contrasting Christian view, 'you shall not do Christendom'.
A documentary that emerged from the debate between Christopher Hitchens and Doug Wilson.
A New Testament book cited for its explanation of the wrath of God as God giving people up to their own will.
A New Testament book cited for instructions to Christian masters and slaves.
Cited as an example of biblical poetry not to be taken literally, e.g., 'green pasture'.
New Testament chapters cited together to explain the distinction between personal forgiveness and the civil magistrate's duty to punish.
Porn star mentioned in speculative connection to Donald Trump's alleged adultery.
Cited for Jesus repeating the Old Testament requirement for executing rebellious children.
A charismatic movement that Sam Harris associates with dominionism, but Doug Wilson differentiates from his own position.
Cited as biblical erotica that should not be outlawed or categorized as pornography by Christian 'wowers' going too far.
Cited as an Old Testament book where decreation language is applied to Edom.
An ardent evangelical member of Parliament and hero of Doug Wilson, who was a prime mover in the abolition of the slave trade.
A New Testament book cited by Doug Wilson in connection with the concept of dominionism.
A New Testament book cited for instructions to Christian masters and slaves.
A Federalist Paper cited for the idea that power is of an encroaching nature.
Cited as an Old Testament book where decreation language is applied to Israel.
A collection of Jesus' teachings, referenced in connection with Erica Kirk's ethic of forgiveness.
Paul's letter returning a runaway slave, Onesimus, used to illustrate the biblical approach to slavery and its subversion.
An Old Testament book cited for the saying 'if you strike the fool, the simple learn wisdom'.
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