What is the 'Mogan Clamp' and how did it relate to Applied Invention's hiring process?

The Mogan Clamp is a medical device used for circumcision. Danny Hillis's company, Applied Invention, used it, along with other unusual items, in interviews to test potential hires' curiosity and engagement rather than their specific knowledge.

How did Danny Hillis transition from computer science to Disney Imagineering?

After his first company, Thinking Machines, didn't work out as a business, Hillis sought a different challenge. With twin babies and a new daughter, he wanted a stable job and fulfilled a childhood dream by becoming a Disney Fellow and VP of Imagineering.

How did Disney's storytelling approach influence the 10,000 Year Clock?

Hillis learned that theme parks are designed as narratives, creating an emotional experience for visitors. He applied this to the clock by focusing on the visitor's journey and interaction, such as the clock showing the last visitor's time and offering rubbings as souvenirs.

What is Danny Hillis's perspective on AI, and what is the 'Songs of Eden' theory?

Hillis believes current AI, particularly large language models, is 'human intelligence on an artificial substrate' – skilled at imitation but not yet true artificial intelligence. His 'Songs of Eden' theory suggests human intelligence co-evolved through a symbiosis of early human grunts/ideas (memes) and the brains developing to process them.

What are Danny Hillis's three criteria for choosing projects?

His criteria are: a senior partner must be genuinely excited by it (often due to potential global impact), it must make financial sense (sustainable or high potential), and it must meet the 'non-redundancy criterion,' meaning it's a unique project that wouldn't happen without their involvement.

What is 'Zero Trust Packet Routing' and how could it revolutionize cybersecurity?

It's a new cybersecurity concept where every data packet carries a 'passport and visa' proving its permission to reach its destination. This moves security from the endpoints to the network itself, aiming to give defenders an advantage over attackers by preventing anonymous packets.

How did Danny Hillis get to work with Marvin Minsky and Richard Feynman?

For Minsky, Hillis researched lab proposals to identify an unmet need (kids programming computers), developed a solution, and then gained access to the lab by finding a mistake in Minsky's personal computer design. Feynman, a friend, was hired as an intern at Thinking Machines after comically reporting for duty.

How does Danny Hillis apply his 'hanging out with smart people' learning strategy?

He focuses on finding experts, learning from their fundamental insights, and asking questions that make them think. He does enough prior research to formulate good questions but primarily learns through conversation rather than just reading papers.

What is Hillis's 'runtime' approach to cancer and neurodegenerative diseases?

Instead of viewing cancer as a static disease, he sees it as an ongoing 'cancering' process within the body. His work with oncologist David Agus focused on detecting changes in proteins in real-time (the 'runtime' of the body) to identify and treat diseases like cancer and Alzheimer's before symptoms appear, acting as a debugger for the body.

Why is Danny Hillis interested in agriculture, and what are his systems-level views?

Prompted by growing his own food during COVID-19, he noticed the inefficiency and unsustainability of the modern food supply chain. He advocates for a systemic redesign, including localized growing, better greenhouse design for diverse climates, and new labor models, rather than just isolated 'point solutions.'

What is the 'entanglement' of nature and technology according to Danny Hillis?

He observes that what was once natural (e.g., genes, atmosphere, mind) is becoming technological, while technology (e.g., the internet, AI) is becoming more like nature – evolved, complex, and not fully understood by any single designer. This blurs the distinction between natural and artificial.

What is Danny Hillis's 'heresy' regarding cause and effect?

He believes that cause and effect is primarily a 'story' or a 'trick' our brains use to make sense of reality, not a fundamental truth of the universe. He argues that physical equations can be rewritten to suggest different causes, indicating it's a useful abstraction rather than an inherent property.

What impact did Danny Hillis's 'pinch to zoom' patent have on the tech industry?

Hillis developed a 'pinch to zoom' technology before the iPhone's release. His patent eventually invalidated Apple's patent on the feature, allowing other companies like Samsung to use it without infringement, preventing a monopoly on the widely adopted interaction.

Legendary Inventor Danny Hillis — Solving the Impossible (Plus Kevin Kelly)

Tim Ferriss

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Key Moments

TL;DR

Danny Hillis discusses invention, long-term thinking, AI, and the future, emphasizing curiosity and storytelling.

Key Insights

Invention thrives on curiosity and recognizing when preconditions are met, not just individual brilliance.

Storytelling is a crucial element in technology and design, shaping user experience and emotional connection.

AI is currently more of a substrate for human intelligence than true artificial general intelligence.

Long-term thinking, exemplified by the 10,000-year clock, is vital for addressing complex global challenges.

Embracing learning from diverse perspectives, even from unexpected sources, is key to innovation.

The distinction between natural and artificial is blurring, creating an 'entangled' reality.

THE CURIOUS INVENTOR AND APPLIED INVENTION

Danny Hillis begins by discussing his unconventional approach to hiring at his invention company, Applied Invention. Instead of traditional tests, he uses a box of peculiar objects to gauge a candidate's curiosity and engagement. This method highlights his belief that inherent curiosity and a desire to learn are more valuable than rote knowledge, setting the stage for a company that tackles ambitious and often 'impossible' problems.

FROM PARALLEL COMPUTING TO DISNEY IMAGINEERING

Hillis recounts his journey from pioneering parallel computing at MIT, leading to a successful but poorly managed company called Thinking Machines, to a surprising stint at the Walt Disney Company. His time as a Disney Fellow provided an unexpected education in storytelling and artistic vision, contrasting with his engineering background. This experience profoundly influenced his approach to problem-solving, shifting focus from pure mechanics to the user's emotional and narrative experience.

THE 10,000-YEAR CLOCK AND LONG-TERM THINKING

A significant part of Hillis's work involves promoting long-term thinking, epitomized by the 10,000-year clock. This monumental project, conceived to encourage reflection on the future, illustrates his belief in the importance of narrative and emotional resonance. The clock's design prioritizes the human experience of visiting it, demonstrating how storytelling principles, learned in show business, can be applied to engineering and conceptual projects with vast temporal scope.

REDEFINING ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE

Hillis offers a nuanced perspective on AI, distinguishing between the current 'AI' (largely Large Language Models) and true artificial general intelligence. He likens current AI to a substrate for human intelligence, effectively imitating human culture rather than possessing its own consciousness. He suggests progress in AI will involve more than just scaling existing models, requiring new ideas and potentially leading to forms of intelligence we can't yet imagine.

SYSTEMS THINKING AND 'THE NON-REDUNDANCY CRITERION'

Hillis outlines his company's rigorous criteria for selecting projects: partner excitement for impact, financial viability, and the 'non-redundancy criterion' – ensuring they tackle problems no one else will or can. This approach, applied in fields from cybersecurity with zero-trust packet routing to agriculture, emphasizes systemic change over isolated solutions. His work in agriculture, prompted by observing food quality on his farm, highlights a desire to re-engineer entire systems for sustainability.

THE BLURRING LINES BETWEEN NATURAL AND ARTIFICIAL

Hillis discusses the increasing entanglement of nature and technology, where biological systems are becoming technologically influenced and complex technologies like the internet are becoming as mysterious as natural phenomena. This blurring challenges our understanding of what is 'natural' versus 'artificial,' suggesting a future where these distinctions may become irrelevant, necessitating new ways of thinking and interacting with the world around us.

LEARNING, HERESY, AND THE FUTURE

Hillis reflects on his lifelong learning driven by curiosity and collaboration, particularly 'hanging out' with brilliant people. He shares his 'heresy' about cause and effect, viewing it as a useful narrative tool rather than fundamental reality. He maintains a long-term optimistic outlook, believing humanity's ability 'to deal with problems' and the potential of new technologies like AI and quantum computing to help solve global challenges, including climate change and disease.

THE ULTIMATE GOAL: A LONGER-TERM PERSPECTIVE

Driven by a desire to make a difference over vast timescales, Hillis advocates for long-term impact over short-term metrics. His projects, from the 10,000-year clock to exploring solutions for neurodegenerative diseases via protein analysis, reflect this ambition. He finds inspiration in inventors like Claude Shannon, who provided foundational tools that only later revealed their revolutionary impact, underscoring the value of foundational work and sustained vision.

Mentioned in This Episode

●Products

●Software & Apps

●Tools

●Companies

●Organizations

●Concepts

●People Referenced

Common Questions

Their mutual friend, Stuart Brand, brought them together at the MIT Media Lab and later through the Whole Earth Review. Kevin Kelly ran Danny's proposal for the 10,000 Year Clock in Wired magazine, and Brand helped establish the Long Now Foundation to build it.

Topics

Parallel Computing Pessimism/Optimism Future Studies

Mentioned in this video

personDavid Agus

Oncologist who approached Danny Hillis with problems in cancer diagnosis and treatment, leading to their collaboration on proteomics.

softwareInternet Protocol (IP)

Original foundation of the Internet designed without security as a primary concern, leading to current cybersecurity challenges.

softwareSqueak

An electronic version of Danny Hillis's picture-based programming for Logo.

conceptDisney Fellow

A title given to Danny Hillis at Disney, previously held by Salvador Dalí, which allowed him to pursue projects without a rigid job description.

conceptDoll's Law

A law that suggested computers became less efficient with more processors, used by IBM to discredit parallel computing, later understood to have a flaw by assuming constant problem size.

conceptPermaCulture

A natural system of agriculture that some people might consider a 'system view,' but Hillis differentiates his approach as more engineered.

productAnimal Kingdom

A Disney theme park, cited as an example of projects Danny Hillis wanted to be involved in during his time at Disney Imagineering.

toolMogen Clamp

A device mentioned as part of Applied Invention's interview process, used for circumcision to prevent overcutting. It's described as horrifying yet beautiful and sterile.

companySun Microsystems

Company where hardware people from Thinking Machines found new roles and exchanged stock options after Thinking Machines closed down.

product10,000 Year Clock

A dream of Danny Hillis to build a clock that would tick for 10,000 years, intended as a way to encourage long-term thinking, which became a project of the Long Now Foundation.

conceptZero Trust Packet Routing

A new cybersecurity concept invented by Danny Hillis and colleagues, where every data packet carries authentication and permission, aiming to create a two-layer security system where the defender has the advantage.

personBran Ferren

Co-founder of Applied Invention with Danny Hillis.

companyApplied Invention

A company started by Danny Hillis and Bran Ferren that 'worked on everything' and emphasizes curiosity in its recruitment process.

mediaWhole Earth Review

Publication edited by Kevin Kelly where Danny Hillis's proposal for the 10,000 year clock was published.

organizationLong Now Foundation

Non-profit founded to encourage long-term thinking, which Kevin Kelly and Danny Hillis have been involved with for almost 30 years, aiming to build the 10,000 year clock.

personWalt Disney

Company where Danny Hillis met Robin Williams and later worked as a Disney Fellow and VP of Imagineering.

softwareWired