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Joanne Paul on Thomas More and the Tudor World
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Key Moments
Thomas More, the inspiration for 'Utopia,' was both a profound thinker and a persecutor of heretics, highlighting the complex and often contradictory nature of historical figures.
Key Insights
Erasmus's admiration for Thomas More, despite More's initial annoyance and later abandonment of scholarly pursuits for public service, was rooted in their shared interest in satire as a tool to critique pride and folly.
More's 'Utopia' uses satire, such as valuing gold as chamber pots, to critique European courts and suggest that true value lies in virtue and utility, contrasting it with artificial constructs like money and social hierarchy.
The narrative structure of 'Utopia,' with multiple layers of narration and debate, intentionally creates an enigmatic text that leaves the reader to question the ultimate message and lessons.
Thomas More's advocacy for the persecution of heretics stemmed from a place of fear regarding societal breakdown, a fear that historian Joanne Paul suggests offers lessons for contemporary society.
Despite his persecution of heretics, More's role in this is often overstated; he imprisoned and interrogated them, but we don't know if he personally tortured them, and directly oversaw only three cases of them being burned at the stake.
The film 'A Man for All Seasons' presents a biased portrayal of More as a hero for freedom of conscience, detaching him from his historical self, particularly his anxieties about individual authority and conscience.
Thomas More and Erasmus: A Friendship Defined by Satire
The relationship between Thomas More and Erasmus, while initially strained, developed into a deep admiration, particularly from Erasmus's side. Erasmus dedicated his seminal work, 'The Praise of Folly,' to More, with the title itself potentially being a Latin pun on More's name. Both men found common ground in their use of satire as a sharp, critical tool to "prod the prideful and powerful." They enjoyed deconstructing excessive pride and exposing the perceived silliness behind it, using humor as a means to bring those in elevated positions back down to earth. This shared interest in satire, however, was not the sole defining feature of their relationship. More's dedication to public service as Lord Chancellor led to a period where correspondence ceased, much to Erasmus's persistence as a high-maintenance friend, prone to hypochondria and constant pursuit of promotion. This divergence in their careers—More's shift from scholar to statesman—created a temporary rift, though their underlying philosophical alignment, especially in defending the Catholic Church against burgeoning Reformation movements, remained.</p> <p>The intention here is to highlight how their intellectual and personal interactions shaped their literary output and perceptions. Their shared critique of societal vanity through satire serves as a crucial lens through which to understand not only their individual works but also the intellectual climate of the era. More, in particular, embodied a thoughtful engagement with societal structures, using wit and intellect to question established norms, a characteristic that would also define his most famous work, 'Utopia.'
The Enigmatic Nature of 'Utopia'
Joanne Paul describes Thomas More's 'Utopia' as an intentionally enigmatic work, best understood as a riddle with multiple layers of meaning. While satire is a significant component—exemplified by the depiction of Utopians using gold for chamber pots and mocking those adorned with jewels—More's intent stretches beyond simple mockery. He contrasts the artificiality of 16th-century European society, with its invented concepts of money, property, and social hierarchy, against the 'real' values embraced by the Utopians: virtue, sustenance, and practical well-being. The Utopians' rejection of gold's inflated value and their use of it for the most mundane purposes serves as a pointed critique of European courts, suggesting that true status comes not from material wealth but from genuine worth and utility. This deliberate ambiguity, forcing readers to grapple with the text's meaning, is key to its enduring relevance over 500 years later.
Interpreting 'Utopia's' Social Structures
'Utopia's' depiction of high surveillance and communal living prompts a modern reconsideration of its themes. While contemporary readers often focus on elements like surveillance and the suppression of individuality as dystopian, historian Joanne Paul suggests these were not More's primary concerns. Instead, More was troubled by the sin of pride associated with individuality and the concept of private property. The Utopian emphasis on the public and shared resonates with his desire to move away from personal ownership and demarcation. Therefore, aspects we now perceive as negative, such as extensive surveillance, might have been viewed differently by More, reflecting a societal ideal focused on communal harmony and shared responsibility rather than individual rights, which became paramount only much later in the post-Enlightenment era.
The Polygamous Puzzle of Raphael Hythloday
The narrative framework of 'Utopia,' told through the third-party accounts of Raphael Hythloday, adds another layer to its enigmatic quality. Raphael's name itself is open to interpretation, meaning either 'peddler of nonsense' or someone who 'reveals nonsense.' This ambiguity, coupled with his archangelic name, encourages a questioning of his authority and the veracity of his descriptions. Book two, detailing the island, is narrated by Raphael, but this is framed by book one and concluding remarks where Raphael debates with the character of Thomas More. This structure forces readers to question who the true authority is. Raphael's account of Utopia arises from a debate about the duty of educated individuals to serve princes, using Utopia as an example of a society uncorrupted by pride or greed. More's final assertion that such a society is impossible in the real world leaves the reader with the ultimate interpretive task.
Thomas More: A Figure of Contradiction
Thomas More presents a deeply contradictory figure, being both a champion of intellectual thought and a participant in the persecution of heretics. Joanne Paul advocates for understanding, rather than simply condemning, such complexities. She posits that More's actions regarding heresy stemmed from a place of genuine fear—a conviction that Lutheranism would lead to societal breakdown. This fear, she argues, led to hatred and violence, a dynamic with contemporary relevance. While More oversaw the imprisonment and interrogation of heretics, his direct role in executions is often exaggerated; he personally oversaw just three burnings at the stake, a point made to counter prevalent social media claims of hundreds. This nuanced perspective encourages a deeper examination of how fear can shape an individual's convictions and actions.
Holbein's Portrait and the Humanist Ideal
Hans Holbein the Younger's portraits of Thomas More offer compelling insights into the man, largely due to Holbein's intimate knowledge and respect for his subject. His portrayal captures remarkable detail, from the individual hairs on More's chin to the twinkle in his eye, suggesting a profound connection. This intimacy is contrasted with Holbein's depiction of Thomas Cromwell, which is seen as lacking the same depth. The existence of both a solo portrait of More and a family portrait, where the women are given prominent roles, further highlights More's unique engagement not just with his public persona but also with his domestic life, a rare visual representation for the Tudor era. These portraits serve as vital historical documents, offering glimpses into the personality and social standing of More beyond his more controversial actions.
Revisiting 'A Man for All Seasons' and Historical Bias
Robert Bolt's 'A Man for All Seasons' is critically examined for its portrayal of More as a heroic figure embodying freedom of conscience against an oppressive state. This interpretation, while resonant with Bolt's own values, significantly diverges from the historical More, who was deeply conflicted about individual conscience and authority. The film's famous line, "It's not because I believe it, it's because I believe it," is presented as entirely contrary to More's actual beliefs. This highlights a common tendency in historical portrayal: simplifying complex figures into heroes or villains, as seen with More being a hero in 'A Man for All Seasons' and a villain in 'Wolf Hall.' Such portrayals often sacrifice historical nuance for dramatic effect, obscuring the contradictory nature of individuals and their relationships.
The Tudor Dynasty's Welsh Roots and Identity
The Welsh origins of the Tudor dynasty played a significant role in their early reign, largely due to the precariousness of their claim to the throne. Richard III, for instance, disparagingly referred to Henry Tudor by his Welsh name to undermine his legitimacy as a potential leader. This 'Tudor' name was not widely used during the period itself, as it was often a source of shame and was not embraced as a dynastic identifier until much later. Henry VII was known as Henry of Richmond before his ascension, and the concept of a unified 'Tudor dynasty' is largely an imposition of later historical writing. This linguistic and origin-based prejudice underscores the challenges faced by the Tudors in establishing their authority.
Catholicism and the Pre-Reformation English People
The question of Catholicism's popularity in pre-Reformation England is complex. Rather than a matter of choosing between popular or unpopular faiths, individuals were inherently Catholic. Criticism and reform efforts, like those of Thomas More and Erasmus, largely originated from *within* the Church. Figures like the Lollards, though considered heretical, still operated within a Catholic framework. The fear of societal fragmentation due to religious division was profound, and separation from the Church was not a widely considered option. Thus, reform and criticism were generally aimed at internal change, not outright schism, highlighting the deep-seated, though not unquestioning, adherence to Catholicism among the populace.
Thomas More's Execution and Public Perception
Thomas More's execution in 1535 generated significant upset, a fact that Henry VIII and his regime were acutely aware of. The king and his advisors, including Thomas Cranmer, attempted to secure More's submission to the Act of Supremacy through various means, fearing the negative public reaction—both domestically and internationally—to his death if he refused. The scheduling of his execution was carefully managed to avoid coinciding with significant feast days, such as the feast of Thomas Becket, to mitigate parallels with historical martyrdoms. The regime recognized that hounding More to his death was controversial, revealing a keen awareness of public opinion and the symbolic weight of More's fate within England and beyond.
The Rise of Literacy and Shakespeare's Genius
The intellectual flourishing that produced Shakespeare is rooted in a 16th-century explosion of education and literacy, driven by both the humanist movement and the Reformation. Humanism advocated for broader educational access, with Thomas More championing education for girls. The Reformation, in turn, emphasized literacy for scripture reading. This led to the proliferation of grammar schools, where boys studied classical texts by authors like Cicero and Ovid, gaining exposure to rhetoric and narrative structures. These educational advancements provided the foundation for Shakespeare's sophisticated storytelling, soliloquies, and poetry, demonstrating a direct lineage from the era's educational reforms to its greatest literary achievements.
Roots of the Scientific Revolution in the Tudor Period
The period leading up to the Scientific Revolution in the 17th century saw crucial developments rooted in the Renaissance and Tudor era. The reintroduction of classical texts spurred interest in Greek mathematics and science. Importantly, the scientific revolution did not emerge as a triumph of science over religion; rather, these domains often intertwined. The scientific method itself has roots in alchemy, driven by the desire to find the philosopher's stone. Figures like John Dee and Francis Bacon, polymaths and occultists, illustrate the blend of scientific inquiry with mystical or esoteric interests, alongside engagement with texts on Judaism and Greek philosophy, contributing to the foundational understanding that would evolve into modern science.
English Visual Arts Lagging Behind Continental Europe
While England had figures like Hans Holbein, a continental artist, its own visual arts scene in the Tudor period lagged behind advancements seen in Italy, Germany, and the Netherlands. There was a pronounced tendency to look to the continent for Renaissance art and stylistic developments, with a perceived lack of support for homegrown English artists. This has led to a general perception, as noted in a recent book on Tudor art, that England's artistic output, particularly in areas like painting, was of lower quality compared to its European counterparts, despite strong traditions in handcrafted items.
The Rise of Anti-Semitism in 16th Century England
The rise of anti-Semitism in 16th-century England, part of a broader European trend, is associated with the Inquisition and the Reformation. These movements aimed to isolate and eliminate any form of heterodoxy or deviation from Catholic Church norms, particularly evident in the Iberian Peninsula's efforts to solidify Catholicism. While not a primary area of expertise for Joanne Paul, this historical phenomenon reflects a wider drive to enforce religious conformity, often targeting minority groups as scapegoats. The increasing power of larger state structures and discourse may have contributed to a greater need for external 'enemies' or victims, intensifying volatility and prejudice.
Islam and Muslim Presence in Tudor England
Openly professing Muslims were not common in 16th-century England, though individuals of Moorish ancestry were present. While there was academic interest in Islamic texts and Hebrew scholarship, significant public or diplomatic engagement with Islam, such as visitors from Persia or ambassadors, primarily emerged in the late 16th century. Early in the century, the presence of Muslims was minimal, and encountering them would have been novel. Racism existed, but it differed from modern scientific racism. Social status could sometimes supersede race, with instances of Black individuals holding positions like trumpeters in royal courts. However, skin color could still be associated with negative character traits, indicating a complex social dynamic that acknowledged difference without it always dictating one's position.
Social Mobility and Barriers in Tudor England
The Tudor period, particularly under Henry VII and Henry VIII, saw significant social mobility. The monarchs strategically employed capable individuals from lower backgrounds to govern, thereby checking the power of the nobility and creating a disposable bureaucratic class. Education and a grasp of Latin and law were essential for such advancement. However, being a woman presented a substantial barrier. While some women held rare positions of power and achieved scholarly recognition, they were generally excluded from formal governance, as they were not considered capable of reason, prudence, or self-control. This exclusion for women became more pronounced as governance became more institutionalized and formalized in the early modern period.
Governance of the City of London
The City of London maintained a degree of self-governance throughout the 16th century, headed by a mayor and a court of aldermen. While the precise election process of the mayor might require verification, governance was largely considered democratically structured, with restrictions on franchise based on citizenship, freeman status, and guild membership. Despite this nominal democracy, conflicts frequently arose between the City and the Crown. Thomas More himself, having served as Under Sheriff of London, was caught in this dynamic, even drawing attention to his refusal to accept royal annuities to maintain his independence from the Crown in the eyes of the City.
Canadian Perspective on Tudor History
Joanne Paul, originally from Ontario, Canada, offers a unique perspective shaped by her background. Raised Roman Catholic and now identifying as Anglican, she has an awareness of both sides of the Reformation. Her Canadian upbringing, she suggests, might foster a detached appreciation for the monarchy, focusing on its ceremonial aspects rather than its potential 'darker side,' which is more apparent in the UK. However, the archival resources in the UK are vastly superior to those in Canada, making intensive study there a necessity. Her passion for history, she believes, is fueled by the privilege of accessing such rich historical materials.
Canadian Intellectual History and Multiculturalism
Canadian intellectual history, which interests Paul, draws significantly on republican and federal thought, particularly the concept of federation. Crucially, Canada has also been a leader in developing discourses around multiculturalism, with leading theorists emerging from the country. She is keen to explore the influences on early Canadian political thought, including the impact of Indigenous confederations and thought on contemporary Canadian political theory, a line of inquiry further pursued by scholars like James Tully.
The 16th Century: A Transitional Space
Paul's attraction to English history, particularly the 16th century, stems from its position as a transitional period between the medieval and the modern. This era witnessed a dynamic shift, a 'liminal space,' where paths not taken offer insights into how our present world might have deviated. The century represents a movement from the foreign and fantastical of the medieval to the familiar and recognizable of the modern. Studying these 'paths not taken' provides a counterfactual lens, offering lessons and agency by inspiring reflection on the world we inhabit and the possibilities for its reconstruction. This concept of historical contingency, as espoused by her PhD supervisor Quentin Skinner, empowers individuals to question and potentially reshape their present reality.
Mentorship and Empowering Voices
Working with Quentin Skinner, a renowned historian, was a profoundly positive experience for Paul. Skinner is described as a supportive mentor who provided her, as a young scholar and a woman in a male-dominated field, with the crucial space to experiment, articulate ideas, and question. His empowerment of emerging voices has been a significant focus of his career over decades, making a substantial difference in the development of young academics like Paul.
Life in the UK and Canadian Comparisons
Paul finds Warwick one of her favorite places in England, citing its historical sites like Warwick Castle. She also expresses affection for Liverpool and Manchester. However, living in the UK presents challenges. Learning to drive, navigating narrow roads, and the general feeling of confinement contrast with the spaciousness of Canada. Additionally, despite warmer Canadian winters, British houses are often poorly insulated, leaving her feeling perpetually cold for several months of the year.
The Anglican Church in Contemporary England
Paul remains hopeful about the Anglican Church's future, viewing the appointment of the current Archbishop of Canterbury as a positive step. She acknowledges the church's recent difficulties but believes in its potential for positive movement. A key to this progress, in her view, lies in fully embracing women in the clergy, noting that churches closing due to a lack of clergy could be revitalized by ordaining women, who constitute a significant portion of those entering the clergy.
Belief in the Anglican Communion
When asked about the percentage of the English population that believes in core tenets like the Trinity and resurrection, Paul admits she does not know the exact figures. She notes that while many participate in Anglican communion, attending services occasionally, their level of belief may vary, often without deep interrogation of those beliefs. She observes that discussions of devils, hell, and angels are far more restrained in England than in the US. As an academic, she also notes that expressing religious faith has been unfashionable, leading to infrequent discussions on the topic within academic circles.
UK Stagnation: Brexit and Short-Termism
Paul attributes the UK's current sense of stagnation, both politically and economically, to several factors. She explicitly identifies Brexit as a major problem, impacting the UK's identity and global economic standing, leading to a standard of living crisis from which recovery is still incomplete. Furthermore, she points to short-term thinking in crucial sectors like higher education, a key commodity for the UK, where funding cuts and attacks on expertise, humanities, and languages undermine its reputation. Underlying this is a concern about persistent racism and xenophobia, which have been divisive and hinder progress.
Upcoming Work: 'Tyrant' on Henry VIII
Joanne Paul's next book, tentatively titled 'Tyrant,' will focus on tyranny during the reign of Henry VIII. It will explore not only the nature and expression of Henry VIII's tyranny and his personality as a tyrant but also the responses to it—the strategies, successes, and failures of those who sought to prevent, mitigate, or oppose tyranny.
Mentioned in This Episode
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Common Questions
Thomas More and Erasmus had a complex friendship that began awkwardly. While Erasmus deeply admired More, More sometimes found Erasmus to be high-maintenance due to his constant letter-writing and need for attention. Their friendship even experienced a period of silence when More became Lord Chancellor.
Topics
Mentioned in this video
The institution where Joanne Paul is affiliated.
The established church in England, facing challenges and undergoing changes, notably in the role of women clergy.
The London School of Economics and Political Science, a leading university in social sciences, part of the UK's strong higher education landscape.
The Christian church that Thomas More remained loyal to, leading to his conflict with Henry VIII.
Ecclesiastical courts established by the Catholic Church to combat heresy, influential in the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe during the Renaissance.
The royal court of Henry VII, which included individuals from diverse backgrounds, such as a black trumpeter, indicating a complex social structure.
A historic charitable institution in Warwick, England, offering accommodation and care.
The established church in England, with which Joanne Paul identifies. She expresses hope for its future, particularly regarding the inclusion of women clergy.
A world-renowned university in England, representing one of the UK's key commodities (higher education) that requires continued investment.
Another prestigious English university, highlighted as a significant global academic institution within the UK's higher education sector.
A public research university in London, specializing in science, engineering, medicine, and business, part of the UK's valuable higher education sector.
Historian, author, writer, broadcaster, and expert on the Renaissance and early modern periods.
An English lawyer, social philosopher, author, statesman, and Renaissance humanist. He served Henry VIII as Lord High Chancellor and was executed for refusing to take the Oath of Supremacy.
An English mathematician, astronomer, astrologer, occultist, and consultant to Queen Elizabeth I. His work bridged early scientific inquiry and mysticism.
An English philosopher, statesman, scientist, jurist, orator, and author. He is credited with developing the empirical method and exploring mystical elements.
A German and Swiss artist who worked at the court of Henry VIII, renowned for his realistic portraits, including those of Thomas More and Oliver Cromwell.
Joanne Paul's MA supervisor, known for political theory that incorporates influences from Indigenous thought.
The senior bishop and a principal leader of the Church of England. Joanne Paul is hopeful about the current appointment.
King of England from 1509 until his death in 1547, known for his six marriages and for breaking with the Roman Catholic Church.
The narrator of Book II of Thomas More's Utopia, whose name is interpreted as 'peddler of nonsense' or one who reveals nonsense.
Archbishop of Canterbury who played a key role in the English Reformation, supporting Henry VIII's break from Rome.
An administrator and statesman under Henry VIII, often contrasted with Thomas More. His portrayal in media varies.
The playwright and screenwriter of "A Man for All Seasons", whose personal principles influenced his portrayal of Thomas More.
King of England before Henry VII, who reportedly used Henry Tudor's Welsh name to undermine him.
The first Tudor monarch of England. He came to the throne after defeating Richard III and established a dynasty known for its ability to employ and discard capable administrators.
Joanne Paul's PhD supervisor, a prominent historian of political thought, known for emphasizing historical contingency and agency.
Joanne Paul's latest book, which was the impetus for the discussion.
Erasmus' famous satirical work, dedicated to Thomas More, which some argue contains wordplay referencing More.
A historical novel by Hilary Mantel and its subsequent TV adaptation, which presents a less heroic, and arguably villainous, portrayal of Thomas More compared to Cromwell.
Thomas More's 1516 philosophical novel exploring an ideal society on an imaginary island. It is known for its satirical elements and complex narrative structure.
Joanne Paul's upcoming book, which will explore the concept of tyranny through the reign of Henry VIII and the responses to it.
A museum in New York City that houses the Holbein portrait of Thomas More, discussed for its intimacy.
A town in Warwickshire, England, known for its castle ruins and historical significance.
The capital city of Scotland, mentioned as another favorite place.
A city in England known for its maritime history and cultural significance, mentioned as a place to revisit.
A historical region corresponding to modern-day Iran, from which visitors and ambassadors came to England in the late 16th century.
A North African country from which someone might travel to England, prompting questions about reception and novelty.
A town in England that Joanne Paul considers a favorite place, known for its castle and historical sites.
A well-preserved medieval castle in Warwick, England, a place of historical interest.
A major city in Northwest England, mentioned as a place the speaker enjoys.
A city in Southwest England with a rich history, mentioned as beautiful and enjoyable.
The peninsula comprising Spain and Portugal, where the Reconquista and Inquisition aimed to establish religious uniformity.
A pre-Reformation movement in England that advocated for religious reforms and challenged some doctrines of the Catholic Church.
The 16th-century religious movement that led to the establishment of Protestant churches, challenging the authority of the Roman Catholic Church.
An intellectual movement of the Renaissance that emphasized classical learning and human potential, influencing education reform and the arts.
A medieval association of craftsmen or merchants, crucial for citizenship and voting rights in the City of London during the Tudor period.
A satirical deity created by atheists to promote the separation of church and state, mentioned humorously in the context of academic mockery of religious belief.
The religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, which was the dominant faith in Tudor England, though fragmented by the Reformation.
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