Key Moments
Bob Spitz on the Rolling Stones, Bruce Springsteen, and the Art of Biography
Conversations with TylerKey Moments
Despite their rock and roll fame, The Rolling Stones initially saw themselves as blues singers, only starting to write songs at their manager's insistence, which fundamentally changed the genre.
Key Insights
The Rolling Stones spent about six months playing in a small club called The Crawdaddy Club before going on the road, and initially had no ambition to write their own music, viewing themselves solely as blues interpreters.
The addition of 'rock and roll' to the blues sound, which Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley started, was significantly amplified by The Rolling Stones, creating the foundational sound of modern rock.
Bob Spitz rates The Rolling Stones' melodies as a 'B minus' compared to The Beatles' 'A plus', though he praises specific rock and roll melodies like those in 'Gimme Shelter' and 'Jumping Jack Flash'.
Satanic Majesties Request was considered a failure because the band attempted to mimic The Beatles' 'Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band' without it being authentic to their own musical identity.
The British rock and roll movement heavily benefited from art colleges, which served as incubators for talent, producing musicians like Jimmy Page, Keith Richards, Jeff Beck, Pete Townshend, and John Lennon.
Mick Jagger's extensive experience managing the band since 1967, drawing on his studies at the London School of Economics, is a key factor in the Rolling Stones' sustained business success and longevity.
Julia Child was a great cooking teacher but not a particularly good cook herself, often overusing butter and cream to the point where guests would become ill, yet she revolutionized American cuisine and supermarket food presentation.
Bob Spitz discovered that Ronald Reagan's shift to the Republican party was significantly influenced by his post-WWII financial disputes with the IRS, sparking an obsession with economics and lower taxes.
The Rolling Stones' blues roots and the birth of rock and roll
Bob Spitz begins by discussing the early days of The Rolling Stones, highlighting that they did not initially dream of writing their own music. Their primary goal was to bring Delta and Chicago blues to the world, as they saw themselves as authentic blues masters. It was their young manager, Andrew Loog Oldham, who insisted they needed to write songs to compete in the pop music world. This led them to try songwriting, adding a crucial element to the blues. Spitz explains that the 'X' factor that the Stones added to the blues was rock and roll. They 'hotwired' the blues, giving it extra power and ferocious guitar work, creating the sound we now recognize as rock and roll. While Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley initiated this sound, The Stones undeniably amplified it. Additionally, Spitz notes that The Stones grew up loving country and western music, which was prevalent on records left behind by American servicemen after World War II, an influence also shared by The Beatles. This blend of blues, rock, and country elements contributed to their unique sound.
Melodic strengths and the 'Satanic Majesties' misstep
When evaluating The Rolling Stones' melodies objectively, Spitz rates them as a 'B minus,' contrasting them with The Beatles' 'A plus' melodies. He acknowledges that while certain rock and roll melodies like those in 'Gimme Shelter,' 'Jumping Jack Flash,' and 'You Can't Always Get What You Want' are spectacular and comparable to some of The Beatles' best, they are perhaps less lush or romantic. The conversation then shifts to the album 'Satanic Majesties Request,' which Spitz agrees was a failure. He attributes this to the band's attempt to mimic The Beatles' 'Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band,' stating that one cannot simply copy another's art; they must play what's in their heart. The band and those involved knew it wasn't authentic, leading to an album rarely played. Spitz emphasizes that this psychedelic direction was simply not in The Stones' wheelhouse, despite their extensive drug use, and they quickly returned to their strengths.
Album orientation and critical appraisal of their discography
Spitz clarifies that while The Stones might not have produced concept albums like The Beatles (e.g., 'Sgt. Pepper' or 'Abbey Road'), their albums were consistently solid and followed a pattern that built energy. He suggests The Stones might have even spent more time in the studio than The Beatles, focusing on engineering and production. When asked to name their best album, Spitz points to 'Beggar's Banquet' and 'Let It Bleed' as the peak of their career. He is more critical of 'Exile on Main Street,' agreeing with the interviewer that it can sound like 'bluesy sludge' and that parts don't stick. He notes that Mick Jagger himself doesn't favor the album, partly because Jagger had limited involvement due to his marriage and travel at the time. Spitz finds 'Exile' a 'mixed bag' and feels two albums were unnecessary, leading to sloppiness. Underrated songs mentioned include 'Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby Standing in the Shadow,' '19th Nervous Breakdown,' and 'Dear Doctor,' the latter being deemed too folksy but still one of their best.
Charlie Watts' unique role and Brian Jones' declining contribution
The interviewer inquires about Charlie Watts, a jazz drummer at heart, and whether he enjoyed playing for The Stones. Spitz believes Watts loved it, seeing it as an outlet for a different side of his personality. Watts was described as a straight-laced, quiet individual who avoided the band's 'high jinks.' He was a dapper dresser, owned fine cars, and raised Arabian stallions but never drove. Spitz suggests Watts loved bringing out this alternative persona as the Stones' drummer. Regarding Brian Jones, Spitz states that after founding the band and being its initial leader, Jones's contribution diminished significantly as his ego grew and he lost the will to lead. Jones, a musical savant capable of playing many instruments, stopped contributing meaningfully. Spitz recounts a 1968 session where Mick Jagger sarcastically asked Jones, 'what can you play?' due to his lack of input.
The impact of art colleges on British rock
Spitz explains the significance of art colleges in the UK educational system. Following the '11 plus' test, students were directed towards university or vocational schools. Art schools emerged as a crucial pathway for talented individuals who were not academically inclined and didn't fit traditional vocational roles. These institutions became incubators for rock and roll, with students bringing their instruments and forming bands in cloakrooms. Musicians like Jimmy Page, Keith Richards, Jeff Beck, Pete Townshend, and John Lennon all came from this background. Spitz notes that this influence continues today, with artists like Florence Welch and Jarvis Cocker emerging from similar educational paths, underscoring the vital role of art schools in shaping British music.
The Rolling Stones' enduring stability and the Mick-Keith dynamic
Discussing the Rolling Stones' 'endurance' (Spitz avoids the word 'stability' due to their volatile history), he attributes it primarily to the rapport between Mick Jagger and Keith Richards. Jagger is the 'leadenous peacock' and showman, while Richards is the consummate musician. They have distinct roles and do not interfere with each other, with Richards happy to let Jagger lead as long as he can play music. This dynamic, Spitz argues, is crucial. He contrasts this with The Beatles, who stopped performing in 1966 and broke up in the studio due to competition between John and Paul. The Stones, however, endure because they love what they do and continually perform. When they stop creating in the studio, Jagger pushes for tours, recognizing that inactivity breeds trouble. This constant engagement, both in the studio and on the road, is the secret to their longevity.
Mick Jagger's managerial prowess and Keith Richards' reaction
The interview touches upon Mick Jagger's solo deal in the early 1980s. Spitz reveals that Keith Richards took this personally, feeling offended that Jagger would want to pursue a solo album and tour, even singing Stones songs. Richards reacted by attacking Jagger in the press, calling him 'Her Majesty' or 'Brenda' (after a character in a novel). Despite this, Spitz highlights Jagger's ability to 'turn a deaf ear' and forgive Richards, even appointing him Best Man at his wedding to Patti Hansen. This demonstrates an 'unshakable bond' between the two that has kept the band together. Furthermore, Spitz points out Jagger's exceptional business acumen, noting that since Andrew Loog Oldham's departure in 1967, Jagger has effectively managed the band. Drawing on his studies at the London School of Economics, Jagger has negotiated contracts, tours, and managed the band's finances, proving to be a remarkably successful manager.
The decline of popular music's cultural influence and the guitar's diminished role
Spitz offers a straightforward explanation for the reduced cultural influence of popular music today: a lack of genuine musicians. He believes contemporary 'performers' rely heavily on producers and are more focused on showmanship than mastering instruments or studio excellence. This contrasts with earlier eras where mastering instruments was paramount. He observes a generational shift, acknowledging that while he may not understand his daughter's music, it is her music. The decline of the guitar's prominence is directly linked to this shift, with current music relying more on electronics. Spitz uses Taylor Swift as an example, appreciating her voice and performance but suggesting she could benefit from learning more than a few guitar chords. He contrasts this with the studio musicians and songwriters behind 'The Partridge Family,' where talent resided more with the session players and writers than the performers themselves, reinforcing his point about the separation of performance and musicianship.
Lessons learned from the Beatles: Ringo's health and Paul's humility
Spitz discusses what he would ask Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr if given the chance. He believes they should 'come clean' about their often 'fraught' relationships within the band. Specifically, he wants to understand Ringo's background more, highlighting his severe childhood illnesses and lifelong health struggles, including polio, and questioning how he maintained his youth and sound. Spitz also recounts an experience in 1997 where he jammed with Paul McCartney in a small cottage. Despite McCartney's fame and knighthood, his home was modest, reflecting his wife Linda's ethos of communal living. McCartney shared his studio, filled with instruments from the 'Abbey Road' sessions and Bill Black's bass. Playing with McCartney was a 'frightening' yet incredible experience, demonstrating his enduring musical talent. Spitz describes McCartney as 'good,' and a private audience with him singing 'Maybe I'm Amazed' was extraordinary.
An objective approach to Led Zeppelin and Bruce Springsteen's work ethic
Initially unfamiliar with Led Zeppelin, Spitz found himself compelled to write their biography. He admits his initial lack of interest in heavy metal and that he owned no Zeppelin albums, only vaguely recognizing 'Whole Lotta Love' and 'Stairway to Heaven.' He approached the band as an 'empty vessel,' spending a year and a half immersing himself in their music and consulting with musicians like Jeff Beck to understand Jimmy Page's guitar work and John Bonham's drumming. This objective stance, he believes, allowed him to be the right person for the job, leading to a newfound appreciation for their entire catalog. Turning to Bruce Springsteen, Spitz describes his work ethic as unparalleled. Having quit his own jobs to manage Springsteen at age 21, Spitz witnessed Springsteen's meticulous rehearsal process and demanding standards. Despite his intensity, Springsteen is a gentleman. Spitz recalls being moved to tears when Springsteen appeared with Barack Obama after his presidential election win, reflecting their journey from uncertain youths to positions of significance. Springsteen's ability to deliver three-and-a-half-hour performances without losing energy or voice is attributed to his dedication and how he 'battered his body' on stage, a different form of endurance than Keith Richards' survival through substance abuse.
Springsteen's motivations and Reagan's early political awakening
Spitz argues that Bruce Springsteen maximizes his 'open heart' and love for his fans, rather than income, despite his astronomical earnings. He illustrates this with anecdotes of Springsteen driving fans home in his own truck after gigs. Spitz expresses profound admiration for Springsteen, calling him a 'hero' and a 'magnificent performer' who 'speaks for all of us.' Springsteen's greatest musical achievement is considered the 'Born to Run' album, with 'Thunder Road' being a particular masterpiece, capable of evoking deep emotion whether played with a band or solo on the piano. Shifting to Ronald Reagan, Spitz clarifies that the former president was a leftist in his youth, a Democrat in a mostly Republican town, and that his significant political shift occurred after World War II. The catalyst was financial: Reagan withheld taxes during the war, believing soldiers were exempt, as they had been after WWI, leading to IRS issues. This experience ignited an obsession with economics and a desire to avoid high taxes, ultimately ushering him into the Republican party.
Reagan's later years, Julia Child's culinary paradox, and the Knicks' team dynamics
Spitz does not believe Ronald Reagan was senile in his second term but rather 'wearing down' and tired, too old for the presidency. He acknowledges Reagan napped repeatedly, even in public during cabinet meetings. The decline, Spitz suggests, began after a fall from a horse post-presidency. Nancy Reagan recognized this, and the book details a scene where she convened with advisors, admitting Ronnie wasn't thinking clearly. Reagan's subsequent speech about memory loss was deeply emotional. Regarding Julia Child, Spitz reveals a surprising paradox: she was an excellent teacher but not a consistently good cook, often using excessive butter and cream, which could make guests ill. Despite this, she transformed American culinary habits and supermarket offerings. As a traveling companion, Child was fabulous, eating three meals a day and portioning her food strategically. She also championed women in kitchens abroad and surprisingly enjoyed McDonald's upon returning to the US. The conversation then moves to the 1969 New York Knicks, a team Spitz became a fan of while writing their biography. He highlights their selflessness under coach Red Holzman, whose sole rule was 'see the open man,' a stark contrast to today's individualistic play focused on personal stats.
Bob Spitz's biography process and the enduring legacy of artists
Spitz outlines his distinctive biographical process: he assembles all materials before writing and proceeds strictly in chronological sequence, without editing or rewriting, massaging each sentence as he goes. This led to a massive 2,800-page manuscript for 'The Beatles,' which his publisher had to significantly cut down, resulting in the loss of about 1,500 pages of stories. He reveals a significant mistake: after finishing 'The Beatles' book, exhausted and broke, he and his wife disposed of all his research and interview materials, a decision he deeply regrets. He also discusses his admiration for Robert Caro, calling him the 'biographers' biographers' for his meticulous research and writing. Spitz contrasts his own approach with Caro's around-the-clock dedication. He notes that despite the immense effort involved in biography, artists like Jagger, Richards, McCartney, and Starr have achieved remarkable longevity. Jagger's endurance is attributed to his lifelong dedication to exercise, a regimen established by his father. Richards, conversely, is a 'medical miracle' for surviving his extensive substance abuse. Spitz reflects on the importance of appreciating these unique individuals while they are still with us.
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Common Questions
Initially blues singers, The Rolling Stones were encouraged by their manager, Andrew Loog Oldham, to write their own music. They 'hotwired' the blues with rock and roll energy, influenced by artists like Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley, and also incorporated elements of country and western music from records left by servicemen after WWII.
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Mentioned in this video
Considered by Bob Spitz to be one of The Rolling Stones' best albums, representing a peak in their career.
A recent album by The Rolling Stones that surprised Bob Spitz with its quality, considering their age.
A television show whose music was produced by Wes Farrell, featuring studio musicians and twin brothers for lead vocals, as noted by Bob Spitz from his early career experience.
Described as Bruce Springsteen's masterpiece, with Spitz noting its romantic depth whether performed with a band or solo on piano.
A Paul McCartney song that Bob Spitz heard him perform solo on the piano during their 1997 meeting.
An album by John Lennon that Tyler suggests is underrated, a sentiment Spitz acknowledges as a minority view.
A concept album by The Beatles that The Rolling Stones attempted to mimic with 'Satanic Majesties Request'.
Considered by Bob Spitz to be one of The Rolling Stones' best albums, representing a peak in their career.
An album by The Rolling Stones that some critics rank highly, but Bob Spitz and Mick Jagger find it less compelling and somewhat 'sloppy'.
A Rolling Stones song suggested as potentially underrated by Tyler.
A Rolling Stones song suggested as underrated, following up the hit 'Satisfaction' and showcasing the band's garage band energy.
A major hit song by The Rolling Stones, mentioned as the follow-up to which '19th Nervous Breakdown' was released.
A Beatles album, some of whose instruments Paul McCartney still possessed and made available to Bob Spitz.
An album by John Lennon that Tyler suggests is underrated, a sentiment Spitz acknowledges as a minority view.
A founder and early leader of The Rolling Stones, a musical savant who contributed intricate sounds but eventually stopped contributing.
A colleague of Bob Spitz who, along with Jimmy Credicus, wrote songs for The Partridge Family and later managed Bruce Springsteen.
A surviving member of The Beatles, about whom Spitz suggests asking about his challenging childhood and sources of longevity.
A member of The Who, who emerged from the British art college system, influential in the development of rock and roll.
Paul McCartney's wife, who advocated for their family to live closely together in their cottage.
A musician Bob Spitz has written a biography about, known for his unpredictability and unique approach to awards.
The Rolling Stones' drummer, a jazz musician at heart, known for his unique personality and impeccable style.
A guitarist and key member of The Rolling Stones, known for his musical contributions and enduring presence in the band.
A producer at Columbia Records who played a role in Bruce Springsteen's early career, for whom Spitz provided lodging.
A member of The Beatles, who attended art college and was a key figure in the British rock and roll movement.
Keith Richards' wife, for whom Mick Jagger served as best man, showcasing the enduring bond between Jagger and Richards.
A renowned biographer discussing his works, particularly his new book on The Rolling Stones, and his experiences writing about various musicians and public figures.
A former US president whom Bob Spitz wrote a biography on, discussing his political shifts, career, and later-life challenges.
A renowned chef and television personality whose biography Bob Spitz wrote, noting her teaching skills and culinary influence, despite personal cooking habits.
A member of The Beatles, known for writing songs at a young age, used as a point of comparison for The Rolling Stones' early songwriting.
The young manager of The Rolling Stones who insisted they write their own music to compete in the pop music world.
An early rock and roll musician whose sound influenced The Rolling Stones, helping them evolve the blues into a more powerful genre.
An early rock and roll musician whose sound influenced The Rolling Stones, helping them evolve the blues into a more powerful genre.
Lead singer of The Rolling Stones, known for his showmanship and role as the band's de facto manager.
A prominent guitarist who emerged from the British art college system, influential in the development of rock and roll.
A guitarist who emerged from the British art college system, influential in the development of rock and roll.
Lead singer of Florence + The Machine, who came out of the UK's art school system, contributing to modern innovative music.
Musician associated with Pulp, who came out of the UK's art school system, contributing to modern innovative music.
An economist reportedly named as Mick Jagger's favorite, though Spitz has no further information on this.
A contemporary performer praised for her voice and stage presence, but questioned by Spitz regarding her musical expertise beyond basic chords.
A producer that Bob Spitz met early in his career, who was producing music for The Partridge Family.
A colleague of Bob Spitz who, along with Micah Pel, wrote songs for The Partridge Family and later managed Bruce Springsteen.
An exercise personality whose show is compared to Mick Jagger's father's exercise television show.
A member of The Beatles who developed significantly as a songwriter, particularly after stepping out of the Lennon-McCartney shadow.
Elvis Presley's bass player, whose bass guitar Paul McCartney owned and maintained.
A legendary musician whose bass player, Bill Black, owned a bass guitar that is now in Paul McCartney's possession.
The first African American President of the United States, whose election celebration Bruce Springsteen attended, highlighting their long-standing connection.
Wife of Barack Obama, who attended the election acceptance speech with her husband and Bruce Springsteen.
An institution where Mick Jagger studied and from which Spitz analyzes Jagger's subsequent role as The Rolling Stones' de facto manager.
A renowned musical theatre writing duo whose songbook is compared to that of The Beatles.
A band whose history and members' lives Bob Spitz has extensively written about, often used as a point of comparison for The Rolling Stones.
The subject of Bob Spitz's new biography, known for their evolution from blues singers to rock and roll icons.
A collection of John Lennon's personal papers and documents that Bob Spitz will have access to for his upcoming biography.
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