Are fictional child pornography or child sex robots ethically different from real child pornography?

The morality of fictional taboo material and child sex robots hinges on their real-world consequences. If they reduce harm to real children, they might be considered acceptable. However, if they instead fuel desires and increase the likelihood of harming real children, they are unequivocally bad.

When does loyalty to a friend conflict with moral obligations?

Loyalty is a virtue in friendship, but it becomes problematic when a friend engages in serious wrongdoing. While minor transgressions might be overlooked due to loyalty, major offenses like scientific misconduct or criminal acts require a re-evaluation where broader moral obligations, particularly concerning harm to others, may need to take precedence.

Is it ever justifiable to defend a friend who is clearly wrong?

Defending a friend when they are wrong is ethically complex. While outright defense might be difficult, a friend's loyalty might translate to offering support in a way that encourages them to correct their misdeeds, or at least not exacerbating negative public perception. Treating strangers with the same consideration as friends is also proposed as an ethical goal.

How should one ethically engage on social media, particularly Twitter?

The impulse for public shaming on social media is considered unhealthy and corrosive. The advice is to treat others, even those you disagree with or dislike, with more kindness and consideration, similar to how one would treat a friend. This approach aims to move away from anger and towards constructive engagement.

What was the controversy around Richard Dawkins' tweet about eugenics?

Richard Dawkins tweeted that it's 'one thing to deplore eugenics on ideological political or moral grounds; it's quite another to conclude that it wouldn't work in practice.' While he argued he was separating biological possibility from moral desirability, the comment was perceived as insensitive and poorly timed, highlighting Twitter's unsuitability for complex scientific and ethical discussions.

What is the ethical framework for engaging with historical figures like Hitler?

When considering extreme historical figures like Hitler, ethical engagement involves acknowledging the necessity of stopping them from causing harm, but without succumbing to anger or hatred. The Dalai Lama's stance of killing Hitler with ritual, grace, and kindness suggests that even in extreme situations, malice should be avoided.

Key Moments

A Conversation with Paul Bloom (Episode #187)

Sam Harris

News & Politics4 min read28 min video

Feb 21, 2020|24,277 views|342|188

sam harris sam harris podcast waking up podcast waking up waking up with sam harris sam harris waking up waking up sam harris sam harris jordan peterson sam harris joe rogan author neuroscientist philosopher

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Key Moments

TL;DR

Paul Bloom and Sam Harris discuss morality, loyalty, and the ethics of controversial topics.

Key Insights

Child pornography is a deeply taboo subject, but understanding the motivations behind it, while condemning harmful actions, is complex.

The ethics of consuming fictional taboo material, like simulated child pornography, depend on its real-world consequences.

Loyalty is a virtue but can become pathological when it overrides moral obligations, especially in extreme cases or when defending wrongdoing within a group.

Defending friends who are wrong is challenging, but a focus on their well-being and a desire for impartial morality can guide actions.

Public discourse, particularly on platforms like Twitter, often lacks nuance, leading to misinterpretations of complex ideas, as seen with discussions on eugenics.

Even when criticizing or correcting others, especially public figures, doing so with kindness and without anger is a more ethical approach.

THE IMMENSE TABOO OF CHILD EXPLOITATION

The conversation opens by addressing the grim reality of child sexual abuse and child pornography. Sam Harris highlights the scope of the problem and society's apparent paralysis in confronting it, attributing it partly to the sheer darkness of the details and the taboo nature of the topic, which shields perpetrators. Paul Bloom clarifies his stance, asserting that while sexual attraction to children is a curse and unchosen, acting upon it is morally reprehensible and constitutes a crime, specifically likening the consumption of child pornography to participating in and engineering the rape of non-consenting individuals.

ETHICAL CONSIDERATIONS OF FANTASTICAL TABOO MATERIAL

The discussion shifts to the ethics of purely fictional taboo material, such as simulated child pornography, where no real harm is inflicted. Bloom argues that the morality of such content hinges on empirical consequences: if it satisfies desires and reduces harm to real children, it could be considered beneficial. Conversely, if it fuels desires or leads to further harm, it would be detrimental. This highlights a consequentialist approach to morality, contrasting with gut feelings or intuitive revulsion, and raises the question of whether child-sized sex robots, if they had the right consequences, could be ethically justifiable.

THE COMPLEXITY OF LOYALTY AND FRIENDSHIP

Bloom introduces a moral dilemma concerning loyalty within scientific research, questioning whether one should report a friend for misconduct. He reflects on the value he places on loyalty, acknowledging that it can sometimes conflict with broader moral obligations. This leads to a discussion about how loyalty, while a virtue in friendship and family, can become problematic when it becomes a primary driver, potentially leading to tribalism or the defense of indefensible actions, thereby creating a dysfunctional dynamic in various contexts, including politics.

NAVIGATING LOYALTY IN PERSONAL AND PUBLIC LIFE

Harris and Bloom explore the complexities of defending friends who may be in the wrong. Harris admits to a default tendency to be more lenient with friends, citing the example of how he might handle a friend's embarrassing tweet. He emphasizes that while public criticism of bad actors is sometimes necessary, especially when alternative viewpoints are underrepresented, the impulse to publicly shame or 'dunk' on others, even enemies, is a corrosive one. He shares his own effort to be nicer on Twitter, treating others with more consideration, even those who have wronged him, like Ezra Klein.

EUGENICS, BIOLOGY, AND SOCIAL PERCEPTIONS

The conversation then moves to a recent controversy involving Richard Dawkins' tweets on eugenics. Bloom and Harris discuss the distinction between the biological possibility of eugenics (breeding for certain traits) and its historical implementation and ethical desirability. They agree that Dawkins, as a biologist, was likely commenting on the 'how' rather than advocating for the 'should.' The difficulty of discussing such sensitive topics on platforms like Twitter is highlighted, as context is often lost, leading to misinterpretation and vilification, even when the speaker's intent is merely to dissect the biological reality of a concept.

ETHICAL COMMUNICATION AND INTENTION ON SOCIAL MEDIA

The speakers reflect on how to engage in necessary criticism without resorting to anger or a sense of moral superiority. Citing the Dalai Lama's response to a hypothetical question about killing Hitler, they suggest that even when one must act against perceived evil or correct wrongdoing, it should ideally be done with kindness, ritual, and grace, not anger or adolescent glee. This principle is applied to social media interactions, advocating for a more constructive and less emotionally charged approach to public discourse, even when dealing with significant disagreements or correcting factual inaccuracies.

Mentioned in This Episode

●Companies

●Organizations

●People Referenced

Common Questions

While having a sexual attraction to children is considered a curse and not a choice, acting on it by consuming or distributing child pornography is a criminal act. The latter involves the real-world commission of crimes like rape and torture, making it distinct from the unchosen attraction itself.

Topics

Society & Philosophy Science & Mathematics Social Media Ethics Public Discourse

Mentioned in this video

People

Boris Johnson

Former Prime Minister of the UK, mentioned in relation to an advisor whose past tweets about eugenics came under scrutiny.

Donald Trump

Former US President, used as an example of someone whose actions can be seen as a loyalty test and potentially an exception to treating everyone nicer.

Gabriel Dance

New York Times writer who has covered child pornography in a series of articles and was interviewed on The Daily podcast.

Ezra Klein

Founder of Vox, with whom the host has had a past negative interaction but still praised a recent book excerpt for its political analysis.

Dalai Lama

Spiritual leader who answered a hypothetical question about killing Hitler, emphasizing non-anger and ritual.

Paul Bloom

Psychology professor at Yale University and guest on the podcast, discussing morality, ethics, and loyalty.

Kate Darling

A robot ethicist at MIT who previously introduced the concept of child sex robots on the podcast.

Sam Harris

Host of the Making Sense podcast, discussing ethics, morality, and current events with Paul Bloom.

Richard Dawkins

Biologist and author whose controversial tweet about eugenics sparked discussion on Twitter's unsuitability for nuanced topics.

Owen Flanagan

A friend of the host who once asked the Dalai Lama a question about killing Hitler.

Media

Vox

Media organization co-founded by Ezra Klein.

Making Sense Podcast

Podcast hosted by Sam Harris, featuring conversations on various topics.

The Washington Post

Newspaper where an excerpt of Ezra Klein's book might have been published.

Organizations

MIT

Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where Kate Darling is a robot ethicist.

Yale University

University where Paul Bloom is a psychology professor.

New York Times

Newspaper where an excerpt of Ezra Klein's book was published.

Cornell University

University where Paul Bloom gave a series of talks.

Software & Apps

The Daily

The New York Times podcast that interviewed Gabriel Dance about his reporting on child pornography.

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