Key Moments
Vejas Liulevicius: Communism, Marxism, Nazism, Stalin, Mao, and Hitler | Lex Fridman Podcast #444
Lex FridmanKey Moments
Historian Vejas Liulevicius discusses the origins, implementation, and failures of communism, Nazism, and their devastating human costs.
Key Insights
Marx's ideology blends utopian ideals with a scientific claim, positing history has a predetermined direction driven by class struggle towards a classless society, which proved to be a powerful and dangerous combination.
The implementation of communism in Russia and China diverged significantly from Marx's original predictions, occurring in less industrialized nations and leading to extreme violence, famine, and political purges, epitomized by Stalin and Mao.
Both communism and Nazism, despite being ideological arch-enemies, shared totalitarian ambitions, rejected democracy, engaged in cynical geopolitical cooperation, and employed a new form of dictatorship seeking total control over populations.
The collectivization of agriculture in the Soviet Union and China (Great Leap Forward) resulted in catastrophic man-made famines due to forced policies, suppression of individual incentives, and the demonization of successful farmers.
The Great Terror under Stalin and the Hundred Flowers Campaign under Mao utilized fear, purges, and the suppression of intellectuals, leading to a culture of dishonesty, negative selection, and the decimation of critical thought.
Modern Russia's historical reckoning remains incomplete, with Vladimir Putin selectively rehabilitating historical figures like Stalin and promoting a narrative of state strength that has led to aggressive actions, such as the invasion of Ukraine.
THE FOUNDATIONAL IDEAS OF MARXISM AND ITS UTOPIAN ALLURE
Karl Marx's central ideas for communist ideology posited that history is not random but moves towards a predetermined goal: the resolution of all conflicts through a scientific revolution. He believed this process was inevitable and would lead to a total liberation of the human person, creating a utopian, classless society. Despite Marx's disdain for 'utopian socialism,' his vision of a post-revolutionary state, free from exploitation and necessity, was deeply utopian. This blend of scientific determinism and utopian promise made Marxism a tremendously powerful and influential ideology, charting a route towards a supposedly perfect future that resonated with millions suffering from the inequalities of industrial capitalism.
DIALECTICAL MATERIALISM AND CLASS STRUGGLE AS THE ENGINE OF HISTORY
Marx, influenced by Hegel's idea of purpose in history, inverted it by grounding historical movement in material conditions rather than ideas—hence, dialectical materialism. He asserted that history is propelled by class struggle, encompassing all friction and conflicts of interest within society. Marx demarcated historical stages, from primitive communism to capitalism, the penultimate stage. He predicted that capitalism's inherent contradictions would lead to the growing misery of the proletariat, culminating in a swift revolution. This revolution would establish the 'dictatorship of the working class,' ultimately abolishing all classes and unifying humanity without internal contradictions, signifying the end of historical conflict.
THE ROLE OF REVOLUTION AND THE WITHERING AWAY OF THE STATE
For Marx, revolution was not merely an option but a critical necessity for the subjugated working class to achieve self-awareness and fulfill its historical role of liberating all humanity. He envisioned a period of centralized control with 'despotic inroads against property' to facilitate this transformation. Subsequently, the state, no longer representing conflicting class interests, would 'wither away,' allowing individuals to enjoy authentic freedom without poverty or necessity. This tantalizing promise, however, was vague on details, projecting a future where the complexities of human interaction would supposedly dissolve once fundamental inequalities were eliminated, reflecting a strong utopian undercurrent despite Marx's scientific claims.
MARX'S FLAWED PREDICTIONS AND THE RISE OF CONTRADICTORY REALITIES
Marx's predictions, particularly regarding the increasing misery (Elend) of the working class and the dwindling of the middle class, began to show cracks even during his lifetime. In developed countries like Britain and Germany, worker movements and unions led to reforms, ameliorating working conditions, while the middle class expanded. This sociological reality contradicted Marx's 'ratchet effect' theory, which posited an inevitable, accelerating decline towards revolutionary explosion. These divergences highlighted a fundamental problem: the extent to which an ideology can adapt to changing circumstances before breaking with its original tradition. This question continues to haunt the history of communism, particularly when examining regimes like modern China or North Korea.
THE INTELLECTUAL PARTNERSHIP OF MARX AND ENGELS AND THE CLASH OF IDEAS
The 19th century, a period of immense change driven by nationalism and industrialization, saw a vibrant clash of ideologies. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels formed one of history's most influential intellectual partnerships, despite their contrasting personalities and backgrounds. Marx, an academic and radical journalist, relied on Engels, the son of an industrialist, for financial support. Their combined efforts, detailed in works like 'Das Capital' and 'The Communist Manifesto,' aimed to provide a scientific roadmap to revolution. This era also saw Marx clashing with rivals like Russian Anarchist Mikhail Bakunin, who, despite agreeing on the need for revolution, prophesied that Marx's hierarchical movement risked authoritarianism, steering history in a very different direction than intended.
FROM GERMAN ROOTS TO RUSSIAN REALITY: THE UNEXPECTED PATH OF REVOLUTION
Although Marxism emerged from a German intellectual context, its first successful implementation occurred in Russia, a country less industrialized than Marx had anticipated. This unexpected turn created profound tension for Bolshevik leaders like Lenin, who keenly understood that their revolution's long-term success depended on a workers' revolution in industrialized Germany. The failure of German communist uprisings and Poland's resistance to Bolshevik expansion forced the Soviets to consolidate power nationally, deferring the dream of international revolution. This geographical divergence from Marx's vision highlighted the ideological adaptations and compromises necessary for communism to survive, leading to the establishment of the Soviet Union a state grappling with profound internal contradictions.
COMMUNISM AS A POLITICAL RELIGION: THE SACRED AND THE SECULAR
Despite its official atheism, communism, particularly in its Soviet manifestation, acquired characteristics of a political religion. Scholars like Reinhold Niebuhr and Eric Voegelin identified religious elements in Marx's vision, portraying him as a savior figure leading humanity to a secular heaven (utopia). The 'end times' of history were embodied in the final revolution, with the working class playing a redemptive role. Post-Lenin, the reverence for figures like Lenin (whose body lay mummified in Red Square) or Mao mirrored veneration for religious relics. This contradiction—an officially atheistic state embodying profound faith—revealed a fundamental human yearning for transcendental purpose, often satisfied by political ideologies when traditional religions were suppressed.
LENIN'S ASCENSION AND THE BOLSHEVIK'S RUTHLESS GRIP ON POWER
Lenin proved pivotal in communism's rise, exploiting the power vacuum created by World War I's devastating impact on the traditional Russian monarchy. His single-minded dedication to revolution, shaped by personal tragedy and a fusion of Marxist and Russian nihilist influences, propelled the Bolsheviks to power in October 1917. Lenin's willingness to make harsh compromises, like the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, demonstrated his conviction that the ends justified the means. The Bolsheviks' reliance on violence and terror was rooted in a tradition of Russian radicalism, viewing a secret police (Cheka) and ruthless suppression as necessary tools to eliminate enemies and enforce conformity, laying the groundwork for future totalitarian control.
THE STALINIST ERA: PROPAGANDA, PURGES, AND MAN-MADE FAMINE
Stalin's ascent was a testament to his pragmatic ruthlessness and Lenin's initial patronage. Despite his uncharismatic demeanor, Stalin masterfully used propaganda and behind-the-scenes control, especially over personnel, to consolidate power, marginalizing charismatic rivals like Trotsky. The secret police, initially established by Lenin, became instrumental in Stalin's purges, targeting perceived enemies, even within the party and military. The 'Great Terror' saw hundreds of thousands executed and millions sent to the Gulag, fostering a society paralyzed by fear and suspicion. This era tragically demonstrated how a leader's will, untrammeled by ethical limits, could lead to immense suffering, with ideology serving as both justification and a tool for unprecedented power.
THE CATASTROPHE OF COLLECTIVIZATION AND THE FAILURE OF CENTRAL PLANNING
Stalin's collectivization of agriculture, aimed at industrializing Russia and controlling food production, proved catastrophic. Rooted in Marxism's disdain for traditional peasantry, the policy forced farmers into vast 'factory farms,' eliminating private ownership and individual incentives. Successful farmers, branded 'kulaks,' were brutally suppressed. This led to a horrific, man-made famine (Holodomor in Ukraine), compounded by impossible quotas, rampant lying in statistics, and government cordons preventing starving people from escaping. The policy's deliberate fostering of class conflict and the 'negative selection' of entrepreneurial individuals fundamentally undermined agricultural productivity, a failure that haunted the Soviet Union until its collapse and served as a stark lesson in the dangers of imposing an abstract ideal onto complex human realities.
NAZISM VERSUS COMMUNISM: ARCH-ENEMIES WITH MORPHOLOGICAL RESEMBLANCES
Nazism, proclaimed as 'National Socialism,' and Bolshevism were ideological arch-enemies, each demonizing the other as the ultimate evil. Nazis framed communism as a 'Judeo-Bolshevik' conspiracy, while communists viewed Nazism as capitulating capitalism's last gasp. Despite this, both shared totalitarian ambitions, rejecting democracy and individual rights in favor of a powerful leader and a unified, militaristic state. Their brutal cooperation in the 1939 Nazi-Soviet Pact, which secretly divided Eastern Europe, exemplified their cynical pragmatism. Political scientists like Hannah Arendt crafted the 'totalitarianism' model to describe these new dictatorships that sought total control over 'hearts and minds,' not just passive obedience, employing fear and compulsion to achieve unprecedented societal transformation.
HITLER'S EXPANSIONIST IDEOLOGY AND THE PERMANENT WAR FOR LEBENSRAUM
Daryl Cooper's claims that Churchill was the 'chief villain' of World War II or that Nazi mass murders were 'humane' byproducts are profoundly contradicted by historical evidence. Nazi ideology, explicitly detailed in 'Mein Kampf,' was inherently expansionist, aiming for world domination and, specifically, 'living space' (Lebensraum) in Eastern Europe. The invasion of Poland in 1939 unleashed ideologically prepared killers (Einsatzgruppen) to liquidate Polish leadership and Jews, predating the invasion of the Soviet Union. Hitler and Himmler envisioned permanent war on the Eastern Front, constantly moving borders eastward to ethnically cleanse and repopulate the land with the 'Germanic Master Race,' enslaving or annihilating Slavic populations. This long-term, genocidal project was central, not peripheral, to Nazi ambitions.
MAO'S ADAPTATION OF COMMUNISM AND CATASTROPHIC EXPERIMENTS
Mao Zedong adapted Marxism to the Chinese context, fundamentally re-envisioning the peasantry as the vanguard of revolution, a significant departure from Marx's original ideas. Mao's ambition was to surpass Stalin and position China as the leader of the international communist movement. His policies, like the 'Great Leap Forward,' attempted to 'outdo' Stalin's industrialization efforts by mobilizing peasant masses for rapid industrial and agricultural transformation. This led to disastrous outcomes, including environmental ruin, famine, and the deaths of tens of millions. The 'Hundred Flowers Campaign,' initially inviting criticism, cynically resulted in the ruthless purging of intellectuals, reinforcing a culture of fear, censorship, and 'negative selection' similar to Stalin's purges.
POST-MAO CHINA AND THE STRUGGLE FOR LEGITIMACY
After Mao's death, China's Communist Party, acknowledging '70% correctness' for Mao, embarked on significant economic reforms under Deng Xiaoping, opening to world markets while retaining absolute political control. This strategic divergence allowed for dramatic economic growth but also raised questions about whether China remained a 'communist country' in a meaningful sense. Unlike Khrushchev's repudiation of Stalin, China could not fully denounce Mao, its founder, leading to a complex legacy where his achievements are still affirmed alongside the reform period. The future evolution of China's political and economic system, under leaders like Xi Jinping, continues to grapple with these inherent contradictions and the aspirations for global influence.
THE LEGACY OF COMMUNISM IN AMERICA AND MODERN RUSSIA
In America, communism faced an uphill battle, often identified with immigrant communities and later undermined by its association with Soviet espionage and the notorious Nazi-Soviet Pact. Loyalty to a foreign power, especially during the Cold War, solidified communism's image as antithetical to American ideals. In modern Russia, the collapse of the Soviet Union was not followed by a full historical reckoning. Vladimir Putin, instead of accountability, has fostered an eclectic mix of historical narratives, rehabilitating tsarist figures and selectively praising Stalin for state strength. This incomplete introspection fuels current aggression, with Russia's actions in Ukraine highlighting the enduring dangers of unaddressed historical trauma and imperial ambitions.
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Common Questions
Karl Marx believed history had a predetermined purpose towards total human liberation, but also allowed for the heroic role of individuals in accelerating this. He insisted on a 'science of revolution' but his vision also contained deeply utopian elements, like a post-revolution state free of conflict and necessity.
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Mentioned in this video
A German social democratic theoretician and politician, associated with the German socialist tradition, noted as essential reading for serious radical socialists.
Author of 'Witness,' a former Soviet spy who later became a renegade from his communist allegiances, detailing Espionage activities.
An American theologian who, in the 1930s, wrote an article in The Atlantic magazine discussing Soviet communism as a political religion.
A Soviet dissident who shared in his memoirs how he was among those sent to enact collectivization policies and witnessed starvation, yet believed it was justified by a larger historical process.
A prolific and celebrated British Marxist historian of the 19th and 20th centuries, who, after the Soviet collapse, stated that the sacrifices made were inordinate because the experiment failed.
A late Canadian author, Vejas Liulevicius's favorite, known for writing novels in a magical realism style influenced by Carl Jung, blending mythical, mystical, and brutal reality.
A Polish philosopher, initially a committed communist then disillusioned, who wrote a three-volume study of Marxist thought, 'Currents of Marxism,' and found Maoism difficult to categorize.
Senator in the 1950s who made vast, unsubstantiated claims about communist infiltration of the US government, though elements of such infiltration were more accurate for earlier decades.
A prominent German Marxist theoretician mentioned as essential reading for serious radical socialists before the Soviet Union's rise.
Russian author of the novel 'Doctor Zhivago,' a significant work for Vejas Liulevicius.
American-born political leader of the Communist Party USA, who had vast ambitions for an American communist movement with the slogan 'communism is 20th century americanism.'
Historian who wrote 'The Whisperers,' a book tracing several families' histories during the Stalin period, illustrating the impact of the Great Terror on Soviet society and intellectuals.
A crackpot Soviet biologist whose agricultural techniques were adopted in China during the Great Leap Forward, producing more agricultural disaster.
The Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union, which was part of their long-term ideological and racial aims for Eastern Europe.
Mao's attempt to rapidly industrialize China, outdoing Stalin's efforts, which resulted in vast human suffering, agricultural disasters, and an environmental catastrophe, leading to approximately 40 million deaths.
The Nazi master plan for Eastern Europe, developed even as the war turned against them, envisioning mega highways, German settlements in Ukraine, and the systematic extermination and enslavement of Slavic populations.
A Korean adaptation of Marx's ideas that serves as the official state ideology of North Korea.
A Nazi killing wave unleashed during the invasion of Poland, involving specially trained Einsatzgruppen units to eliminate Polish leadership and Jews, predating Operation Barbarossa.
Mao's official 'rectification campaign' that invited Chinese intellectuals to share ideas and constructive criticism, but resulted in ruthless punishment for those who spoke out, leading to negative selection and a culture of fear.
An amazing book by Orlando Figes that traces several families' histories during the Stalin period, testifying to the winnowing of society's most intelligent people during the Great Terror.
The second novel in Robertson Davies's 'The Deptford Trilogy'.
A masterful series of three linked novels by Robertson Davies, including 'Fifth Business,' 'The Manticore,' and 'World of Wonders,' highly recommended for their blend of mythical and real.
The first novel in Robertson Davies's 'The Deptford Trilogy'.
The third novel in Robertson Davies's 'The Deptford Trilogy'.
Marx's enormous, multi-volume work intended as the 'Origin of Species' of economic thought, representing years of research in the British Museum library.
A compelling book written by Whitaker Chambers, a former Soviet spy, detailing his experiences and the vast stakes involved in the battle of ideologies.
A three-volume study of Marxist thought by Polish philosopher Leszek Kołakowski, who found it hard to categorize Maoism within Marxist tradition.
Vejas Liulevicius's second book, published by Oxford University Press, which examines centuries of German perceptions of Eastern Europe, focusing on how negative stereotypes were adopted by the Nazis.
A humiliating treaty signed by Lenin and the Bolsheviks with Germany, leading to significant territorial losses for the Russian Empire, which Lenin believed would soon be a 'dead letter' due to anticipated widespread revolution.
A non-aggression pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, signed August 23, 1939, containing secret clauses for territorial division of Eastern Europe, which forced American communists to abruptly change their propaganda stance.
The international organization headquartered in Moscow that worked to encourage and help revolutionaries worldwide, initially skeptical about the Chinese Communists.
The Soviet army whose movement into Eastern Europe after World War II led to the expansion of Stalin's puppet regimes.
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