How did David Choe's mother influence his belief in himself as an artist?

Choe's mother, a hardcore born-again Christian, instilled in him a 'blind faith' that he was the greatest artist on the planet, despite his troubled childhood. This unwavering belief, though delusional, became a powerful internal driver for his artistic pursuits.

What was David Choe's experience painting the initial Facebook offices?

David Choe was hired by Sean Parker to paint Facebook's early offices, with Parker urging him to 'paint everything' and make it look chaotic. Initially offered cash (which he desperately needed), Choe gambled and requested equity in the company instead. The process was messy, toxic due to spray paint, and the founders didn't even like his art, but it led to him becoming a millionaire.

How did early career rejections and shame impact David Choe's art?

Choe experienced numerous rejections from mainstream art galleries and publications. These rejections, coupled with childhood shame and a desire to prove others wrong, fueled his artistic drive. He learned to channel heartbreak and anger into his work, developing a thick skin and a fierce commitment to creating, regardless of validation, initially producing very detailed work and later embracing a looser style.

Why did David Choe get into pornography publishing?

After repeated rejections from mainstream and niche magazines like Playboy and Penthouse, Choe sought opportunities wherever he could find them. He found work drawing explicit anal art for 'Butt Man' and 'Hustler' magazines, which, despite the shame, provided him with his first paid writing and art jobs, fitting into his pattern of finding success through unconventional or 'bad' behavior.

What was David Choe's experience with Anthony Bourdain?

David Choe developed an organic friendship with Anthony Bourdain, seeing him as a kindred spirit who also grappled with addiction and used workaholism to cope, a pattern Choe recognized. Bourdain mentored Choe and planned for him to take over his show on CNN, but the production company ultimately rejected Choe due to 'optics', adding to Choe's cycle of shame and anger.

How did David Choe's podcast become recognized and lead to an Emmy?

Choe's podcast, DVDA, was initially an unfiltered platform born from a desire to push boundaries and document his 'downfall,' treating it as a new canvas without rules. This raw approach, combined with his work on Vice News, eventually led to an Emmy win, despite the controversial content of his personal podcast.

What led to David Choe's eventual recovery and self-acceptance?

After hitting rock bottom with a heart attack at 35 and facing the potential loss of career opportunities due to his self-destructive behavior, Choe finally committed to recovery. This involved plant medicine therapy, rehab, men's groups, and 12-step meetings, learning to ask for help and prioritize self-care. He now focuses on daily gratitude and internal validation.

What is David Choe's advice on workaholism and taking time off?

Choe challenges the societal glorification of workaholism, noting that constant work prevents self-reflection and connection. He encourages Andrew Huberman, and others like him, to take a significant break (e.g., a year off) to 'unlearn' the need to constantly produce, believing it will lead to more artistic and personal breakthroughs, as brilliance is found in mundane, quiet moments.

How does David Choe integrate his belief in Santa Claus into his adult philosophy?

Choe uses his lifelong, unwavering belief in Santa Claus, inherited from his mother's 'blind faith' in Jesus, as an example of embracing belief beyond logic. He views it as a source of hope and resilience, encouraging jaded adults to 'try it on' as a way to access hope and magic in their lives.

How does David Choe define creativity and art?

Choe believes that while craft can be taught, true creativity emerges from deprivation, trauma, and a willingness to be vulnerable and 'naked' with one's soul, regardless of external validation. He sees it as a solitary sport where internal struggles become the fuel for expression, seeking to rip his heart out and put it on display.

What did David Choe learn from Stan Lee about interacting with fans?

Choe learned from Stan Lee the importance of not correcting people's happiness, even if it means signing something you didn't create. Lee's philosophy was to bring joy to fans, a lesson Choe applies to his own interactions and general life approach, prioritizing happiness over factual corrections.

How did David Choe's childhood trauma influence his intelligence and verbal skills?

Choe posits that for many brilliant and intellectual individuals, especially men, profound childhood trauma (often sexual abuse, though not in Huberman's case) can unlock a compensatory intelligence and verbal acuity as a defense mechanism. This leads to becoming 'the smartest person in the room' who can verbally 'destroy' others, as a form of mental self-protection.

What methods does David Choe use to manage his addictions and self-destructive behaviors?

Choe implemented extreme measures, including hiring close friends to physically intervene and remove him from gambling tables or situations, paying them only if they succeeded. He also uses daily affirmations and self-talk to 'brainwash' himself into believing he is worthy and enough, counteracting years of negative self-perception.

What is the 'play the tape out' tool that David Choe mentions?

The 'play the tape out' tool is a recovery concept where one intelligently anticipates the long-term, negative consequences of impulsive or destructive behaviors. Choe applies this by asking himself, 'How do you think this ends for you?' to prevent escalation in addiction or self-sabotage, contrasting it with applying logic to emotional problems.

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Transform Pain & Trauma Into Creative Expression | David Choe

Andrew Huberman

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TL;DR

Artist David Choe openly discusses transforming trauma, shame, and addiction into creative expression and self-acceptance.

Key Insights

Choe views every single addiction as a form of gambling, driven by a desire to escape oneself and the pursuit of extreme highs and lows.

His artistic drive was shaped by contradictory childhood messages: his mother's delusion of his greatness juxtaposed with his father's harsh disappointment and physical abuse.

Chasing shame and anger became a powerful, self-destructive addiction, fueling his need to prove himself and rebel against expectations.

Choe found creativity and brilliance in mundane, deprived environments, challenging the romanticized ideal of achieving success in major cities.

He learned to adapt and shapeshift from observing his mother's fearless business tactics and Stan Lee's approach to making people happy.

Embracing vulnerability, self-compassion, and surrendering control, Choe now prioritizes self-care and authentic connection over external validation and constant striving.

THE ALL-CONSUMING NATURE OF ADDICTION

David Choe reveals his lifelong struggle with severe gambling addiction, asserting that all addictions are fundamentally a form of gambling. This compulsion stems from a deep-seated self-hatred and a desperate need to constantly run from himself. He describes a relentless cycle of staying perpetually busy with art, music, travel, and various jobs, all to avoid sitting still and confronting his inner demons. This constant activity, a literal and figurative running, prevented him from engaging in self-reflection for decades, creating a cycle of extreme highs and lows fueled by a desire to experience intense emotions without genuine presence.

CONTRADICTORY CHILDHOOD MESSAGES

Choe's artistic path was profoundly influenced by contradictory messages received during childhood. His born-again Christian mother instilled a blind faith in his exceptional artistic talent, constantly telling him he was destined for greatness, even at five years old. In stark contrast, his father would throw him against walls, shaming him for pursuing graffiti over traditional careers and seeing him as a 'disgrace.' This created an internal conflict: a belief in his own superiority alongside immense self-loathing. He realized his mother's 'delusion' was a powerful form of blind faith that he eventually adopted for himself.

ESCAPING SHAME THROUGH REBELLION AND CREATIVITY

Growing up with bullying, abandonment, and abuse, Choe actively sought to escape pervasive feelings of shame and self-hatred. He found solace and defiance in shoplifting spray cans and creating graffiti, despite his father's violent disapproval. This era of 'vandalism' was not about art but about a visceral expression of 'I don't care.' His art became a conduit for his internal pain and anger, a rebellious act against societal expectations, particularly the pressure for Asian-Americans to pursue careers as doctors or lawyers. The act of creation, even if deemed 'vandalism,' was a way to process his tumultuous emotions.

INSIGHTS FROM UNCONVENTIONAL MENTORS

Choe highlights the influence of two unconventional 'teachers' in his life: his mother and Stan Lee. His mother, a 'brutal businesswoman' who 'shapeshifted' her appearance and stories to achieve her goals during their struggles, taught him the power of 'acting as if' and adapting to any situation. Simultaneously, Stan Lee's perspective on signing non-Marvel comics reinforced the idea of bringing happiness to others, even if it meant bending the truth. These lessons contributed to Choe's willingness to manipulate reality and play different roles to achieve his artistic and personal aims, showing him that rules and facts could be bypassed when driven by conviction and a desire to connect.

THE FACEBOOK MURAL AND EQUITY OPPORTUNITY

David Choe recounts his legendary experience painting the original Facebook offices. He met Sean Parker through his growing network and Parker, attracted to Choe's 'I don't give a fuck' energy and art, commissioned him. Choe, just out of prison and needing money, saw an opportunity. Despite not understanding equity, he chose to take shares instead of a cash payment, a decision he credits to his mother's 'gambler's mentality' and intuition. Mark Zuckerberg and Sean Parker wanted art that would 'scare' investors and convey an anti-MySpace punk rock ethos, perfectly aligning with Choe's defiant and unrefined style at the time. This pivotal moment, though driven by necessity and artistic rebellion, inadvertently led to immense wealth.

NAKED VULNERABILITY AND THE PAIN OF EXPOSURE

Choe recounts a deeply humiliating childhood experience where his brothers read his private journal, exposing his secret emotions and inflicting profound shame. This moment, more painful than any physical abuse, taught him the vulnerability of putting his 'soul' out for public critique. He contrasts this with the creative process: while a sketch and painting can be refined in solitude, publicly displaying art or personal stories means exposing one's raw self. This early betrayal, however, conditioned him. He developed a thick skin, learning to endure rejection and external judgment, which later paradoxically fueled his willingness to create and share without inhibition, knowing he could survive the emotional pain.

THE ADDICTION TO WINNING AND LOSING

Echoing his friend's observation, Choe confirms that gambling addiction quickly morphs from a desire to win into an addiction to losing, driven by shame. He describes the paradoxical high of losing millions of dollars, feeling a 'dead inside' dissociation that was a perverse comfort. This mirrors his self-sabotaging patterns, where winning and validation felt 'boring' after reaching the top, leading him to 'burn it down' like a child destroying a LEGO creation. This constant pursuit of extreme emotional states, both positive and negative, became a substitute for authentic connection and self-acceptance, illustrating how addiction can twist even the desire for suffering into a familiar, destructive pattern.

REWARDED FOR 'BAD BEHAVIOR'

Choe observes a pattern throughout his career where 'bad behavior' or acting defiantly was met with rewards. Getting fired from Marvel led to opportunities with DC Comics. His 'out of control' podcast, which initially got him fired from Vice News, ironically won an Emmy. Challenging Nike's payment practices by threatening violence resulted in immediate payment. This created a reinforcing loop, where ignoring rules and expressing raw, unfiltered emotions often opened new doors or garnered respect. This paradoxical validation, however, came at a significant personal cost, exacerbating his self-destructive tendencies and making it difficult to live a balanced, healthy life.

AUTHENTICITY VS. PERFORMANCE: THE ANTHONY BOURDAIN CONNECTION

Choe developed a deep friendship with Anthony Bourdain, seeing him as a kindred spirit who also grappled with workaholism as a form of addiction. Bourdain's appreciation for authenticity deeply resonated with Choe, especially when they filmed an episode in Koreatown. Choe insisted on showcasing his real experience, including eating at Sizzler, rather than conforming to an idealized image. This collaboration, which became the most-watched episode, highlighted the power of genuine self-expression. However, Bourdain's tragic passing also reinforced Choe's understanding of the heavy cost of a relentlessly 'interesting' life, leading him to question his own perpetual striving and seek a more grounded existence.

THE JOURNEY TO SELF-ACCEPTANCE AND SURRENDER

After years of what he describes as 'self-suicides' and reaching a mental bottom, Choe embarked on a decade-long journey of recovery. He engaged in plant medicine therapy, rehab, men's groups, and 12-step meetings, dedicating himself to stopping destructive patterns. Acknowledging his nature as a 'liar' and 'thief' as an addict, he even paid friends to physically intervene and remove him from gambling situations. This profound commitment to healing, driven by the care of his friends, allowed him to finally prioritize self-care over external validation. He learned to 'surrender' to the things he couldn't control, recognizing that true 'winning' came from acceptance rather than constant fighting and proving.

EMBRACING MEDIOCRITY AND QUIET MOMENTS

Choe now seeks 'brilliance in the mundane,' finding creative spark in quiet moments rather than seeking extreme, chaotic experiences. He actively counters his all-or-nothing, black-and-white upbringing by daring to be 'mediocre' and 'moderate.' This involves daily affirmations of self-worth, making space for himself, and moving away from the workaholism that society often applauds. He challenges the societal narrative that success requires constant busyness and endless striving, advocating for slowing down, introspection, and prioritizing emotional well-being over career achievements or legacy, which he now views as 'nothing.'

THE POWER OF INTENTION AND CONNECTION

Despite his previous inclination for 'shock value' and 'offending people' to prove a point, Choe now emphasizes the importance of intention and genuine connection in his interactions. He acknowledges that his past use of words, particularly in podcasts, often led to misunderstandings and severe consequences, as people interpret words literally unlike visual art. His current goal is to be seen and understood for who he is, not for external achievements or performances. He values listening, presence, and shared vulnerability, hoping to connect with others on a deeper, spiritual level, rather than through intellectual sparring or proving his worth.

A CALL FOR SELF-COMPASSION AND REST

Choe passionately advocates for taking time off, challenging the universal notion that constant work and striving are necessary for success. He implores people, particularly those who are driven and 'take care of a lot of people,' to prioritize self-care and address the underlying pain they are running from. He believes that true creative regeneration and personal growth come from rest and introspection, not from continuous activity. His own journey, marked by physical and emotional collapse, taught him the critical importance of self-compassion and making intentional choices for well-being, even if it means 'disappointing' external expectations.

Mentioned in This Episode

●Software & Apps

●Companies

●Organizations

●Concepts

●People Referenced

Common Questions

David Choe believes every addiction is a form of gambling addiction, driven by a desire to escape oneself and avoid confronting deep-seated self-hatred. He describes using frantic activity, like graffiti and travel, to avoid sitting still with his own thoughts and feelings. Now in recovery, he can sit with himself.

Topics

Workaholism Anthony Bourdain Gambling Addiction

Mentioned in this video

music_groupMinutemen

Punk band David Choe listened to as a teenager, reflecting his musical taste.

organizationPenthouse Magazine

Adult magazine David Choe submitted art to, receiving rejection.

personAdam Cohn (Upper Playground)

Friend of Andrew Huberman who skateboarded with him and later started the brand Upper Playground, where David Choe worked doing graphics.

personBob Ross

Another member of Choe's childhood holy trinity, representing accessible art and a gentle approach.

personDanny Elfman

Musician and composer, also mentioned as having been involved with Pee-wee's Playhouse.

personPee-wee Herman (Paul Reubens)

A major childhood inspiration for David Choe, admired for his creativity and commitment to character. Andrew Huberman also met him once. David later has a phone call with him for his show.

softwarePlaxo

Another company started by Sean Parker after Napster, before he became involved with Facebook.

personMark Mothersbaugh

Musician, founding member of Devo, mentioned as having been involved with Pee-wee's Playhouse.

music_groupFaith No More

Band whose song 'Easy' David Choe would listen to while shoplifting spray cans, repeating lyrics to get into a trance.

personGary Panter

Artist mentioned as having worked on Pee-wee's Playhouse, whose art spoke to Choe.

personSean Parker

Co-founder of Napster and early investor/president of Facebook. He contacted David Choe to paint Facebook's early offices and convinced him to take equity instead of cash.

music_groupMinor Threat

Hardcore punk band David Choe listened to as a teenager, reflecting his musical taste.

music_groupSoundgarden

Band whose song 'Slaves & Bulldozers' David Choe used to play loudly while punching himself in a 'berserker rage' as a teenager.

personRyan Suave

Addiction and trauma counselor mentioned by Andrew Huberman, who noted gambling addicts can become addicted to losing.

companyKinko's

A chain of copy and print centers, used by David Choe in his early career to make color copies of his art for submission to magazines.

organizationRolling Stone Magazine

Prestigious music and culture magazine David Choe tried to get his art published in, receiving rejection.

organizationPlayboy Magazine

Magazine David Choe submitted art to early in his career, receiving rejection.

organizationHustler Magazine

Adult magazine that accepted David Choe's art and later his fabricated stories, marking his entry into pornography publishing.

personJohnny Depp

Actor, whom David Choe met on the set of the movie 'Blow'. Choe tried to show him his pornographic art, hoping for recognition.

personChanning Tatum

Actor who reached out to David Choe, admiring his writing and offering to produce anything Choe wrote, but later backed out due to agency concerns.

personAxel Allonzo

Editor at DC Comics (Vertigo imprint) who offered David Choe a writing gig after reading his Vice articles, but left for Marvel before the project materialized.

organizationButt Man Magazine

Pornography magazine that published David Choe's anal-themed paintings and "butthole stories," providing his first paid writing work.

personRay Liotta

Actor, mentioned as being in the movie 'Blow' with Johnny Depp.

organizationLarry Flynt Building

The building where Hustler magazine and its associated publications were housed, which David Choe visited to sell his art.

personDavid Fincher

Director of 'The Social Network' movie, which depicted the founding of Facebook. Choe notes some facts were right but the portrayal of events was not entirely accurate.

conceptKorean Jesus

A prop from '21 Jump Street' that Channing Tatum's agent sent to David Choe after Choe requested it, which Choe then prayed to.