Key Moments
This CPO regrets that product management exists | Tom Verrilli (CPO of Whatnot)
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Key Moments
Whatnot's CPO questions the necessity of traditional product management, advocating for engineers and designers to develop PM skills, arguing that over-reliance on PMs infantilizes technical teams and hinders their growth.
Key Insights
Whatnot's product team was founded on the premise 'we regret that product management exists' to ensure PMs are hired only for specific, demonstrable needs, not as a default.
In the last 2 years, 31,832 people applied for a Product Manager role at Whatnot, and only one was hired, highlighting an extremely selective hiring process.
The traditional PM path of promotion out of 'doing' work into management is questioned, with a preference for senior PMs to remain Individual Contributors (ICs) and stay hands-on.
AI tools have significantly increased leverage for Individual Contributors (ICs), enabling them to perform complex data analysis and understand codebases more rapidly than before.
The majority of US retail shopping (over 80%) is still low-intent or experiential, suggesting that agentic commerce will not fully replace human-to-human live commerce.
Weak leadership, not inherent complexity, is often the reason for inaction on critical product decisions, as exemplified by Twitter's delayed 140-character limit change.
The 'regrettable' necessity of product management
Tom Verrilli, CPO of Whatnot, challenges the traditional product management function, positing that its existence is often a consequence of scale rather than a fundamental necessity. He argues that as tech companies grew, product management evolved from direct founder-engineer collaboration to a specialized role. This specialization, however, can lead to engineers and designers becoming overly reliant on PMs for decision-making, hindering the development of their own product instincts and problem-solving muscles. The core idea is that it's better to avoid hiring a PM if engineers and designers possess the necessary context and user empathy to make product decisions themselves. This approach aims to prevent the 'infantilization' of technical teams, ensuring they remain capable of making critical calls without constant oversight.
Selective hiring and the decline of political PMs
Whatnot's hiring process for Product Managers is exceptionally stringent, with only one hire made out of 31,832 applicants in two years. Verrilli notes a declining trend in desirable traits for PMs, specifically mentioning a decrease in value placed on candidates who heavily emphasize 'driving alignment' and 'stakeholder management.' He identifies this as a potential indicator of a 'political' skillset rather than a customer- or technology-focused one. Instead, Whatnot seeks PMs who demonstrate both macro strategic thinking and micro-level execution capabilities, emphasizing their ability to make decisive, novel contributions rather than merely polishing existing features within large organizations.
AI as a force multiplier for individual contributors
AI tools are significantly enhancing the leverage available to Individual Contributors (ICs), including engineers, designers, and PMs. Verrilli highlights that AI enables faster data analysis, allowing PMs to pull nuanced data cohorts and understand user behavior in real-time, a task that previously required extensive collaboration with data scientists. Similarly, AI tools like large language models allow ICs to query codebases and understand system logic, reducing the need to constantly interrupt engineers for explanations. This empowers individuals with well-honed judgment to make quicker, more informed decisions, accelerating development cycles and improving product quality without necessarily increasing headcount. The ability to spot regressions and analyze user interactions in real-time is also greatly enhanced.
The value of hands-on leadership and 'playing the accordion'
Contrary to the common advice to 'hire great people and get out of their way,' Verrilli advocates for a 'verify then trust' model where leaders remain deeply involved. He emphasizes the importance of senior leaders, including himself, staying hands-on with the product work, even if it means doing individual contributor tasks. This approach, termed 'playing the accordion,' involves a constant cycle of zooming out to strategize and zooming back in to deeply understand the micro-details of implementation and user impact. This iterative process allows leaders to gain granular insights, make better macro decisions, and avoid common pitfalls like relying solely on average metrics without considering individual user needs. It ensures that leadership's directives are grounded in reality and that critical trade-offs are understood at a deep level.
Top-down leadership and founder-led intuition
Verrilli suggests that in founder-led companies, a top-down approach, when executed by capable leadership, can be highly effective. He argues that if leaders possess strong customer intuition and ground truth understanding, they can guide product development more efficiently. The key distinction is between effective, detail-oriented leadership and detrimental micromanagement. When leaders are genuinely in the weeds, understanding the data and the user experience, they can provide better direction and unblock teams. This contrasts with situations where weak leadership results in indecision on critical issues, leading to stagnation and missed opportunities, such as Twitter's prolonged delay in lifting the character limit.
The enduring power of network effects and niche markets
Despite the rise of agentic commerce, Verrilli believes there is significant room for human-to-human interaction in commerce, especially for low-intent or experiential purchases. Live commerce platforms like Whatnot bridge the gap between the convenience of online shopping and the social, curated experience of physical retail. He notes that e-commerce has historically plateaued around 20% of US retail spend, indicating a persistent demand for non-transactional shopping experiences. Furthermore, he highlights the immense power of network effects, citing Twitter's resilience despite organizational turmoil. For Whatnot, this translates to enabling sellers to connect with buyers in real-time, creating unique economic opportunities, such as selling live lobsters directly to consumers, which demonstrates the continued vitality of human-driven commerce.
Skills that matter most in an AI-driven future
Verrilli agrees that core product management skills—identifying what to build, distilling requirements, prioritizing for ROI, providing feedback, and understanding business strategy—are becoming increasingly crucial as AI takes over more of the execution work. He notes that while these skills are fundamental, the industry has sometimes rewarded 'product theater'—communication and alignment skills—over deep product craft. In an AI-enabled world, the ability to genuinely understand the customer, the business, and the technology, and to translate between them for optimal efficiency, is paramount. This reinforces the idea that experienced PMs with a strong grasp of these fundamental skills will remain highly valuable, regardless of the tools used for execution.
Mentioned in This Episode
●Software & Apps
●Companies
●Organizations
●Books
●People Referenced
Product Management Best Practices: Whatnot CPO's Insights
Practical takeaways from this episode
Do This
Avoid This
Common Questions
The Whatnot product team operates on the premise that they 'regret that product management exists.' This doesn't mean PMs aren't valued, but rather that it's better to not assume a PM is needed in every situation and to empower engineering and design to develop these skills.
Topics
Mentioned in this video
Mentioned as a company powered by WorkOS.
Mentioned as a company powered by WorkOS.
Mentioned as a company powered by WorkOS.
Provides banking services for Mercury.
A live stream shopping platform and the fastest growing US marketplace business of all time. Tom Verilli is the CPO.
Mentioned as a company powered by WorkOS and where former CTOs are now engineers.
A B2B SaaS platform that provides drop-in APIs for enterprise features like SSO, SCIM, and audit logs. Presented as the sponsor of the episode.
Tom Verilli was a former Director of Product Growth at Twitter. The company experienced significant organizational chaos during his tenure.
Mentioned as an example of tools for observing user behavior.
Mentioned as having a CTO who became an engineer at Anthropic.
Used as an analogy for WorkOS, describing it as 'Stripe for enterprise features'.
Tom Verilli was the former Chief Product Officer at Twitch. The company operated on a 'two-pizza team' model.
Mentioned as a company where senior directors might spend their time in alignment meetings.
The shipping carrier used for overnight delivery of products purchased on Whatnot.
Provides banking services for Mercury.
A fintech company offering banking services for entrepreneurs, praised for its product-minded approach and features like an API and Command, an AI-powered financial operator. Presented as the sponsor of the episode.
Mentioned as having a CTO who became an engineer at Anthropic.
A seafood seller on Whatnot who live streams fresh seafood auctions.
Mentioned as a company powered by WorkOS.
Mentioned as a company powered by WorkOS.
Mentioned as a company powered by WorkOS.
Mentioned as a company that builds developer tools where engineers are often considered sufficient without PMs.
Internal tooling at Whatnot that allows PMs to pull nuanced cohorts of data and build sensitivity models quickly.
An AI model mentioned as a tool Tom uses to understand codebases and estimate effort, helping PMs move faster.
Tom Verilli's Twitter/X handle where he shares product management insights and discusses Warriors games.
An Australian government services app that Tom Verilli praises for its user experience in managing life administration.
Recommended by Tom Verilli as the best book on product management, covering the breadth of challenges and failures.
Recommended for fiction or fantasy readers.
A poem by Rudyard Kipling that Tom Verilli memorized in college.
Recommended for its insights into engineering emotional investment, particularly relevant for community product roles.
Author of 'The Purpose Driven Church'.
Shouted out for the phrase 'whole ass few things', related to focusing on execution.
Quoted for the principle: 'When you have data and an anecdote, trust the anecdote.'
Former CEO of Twitch who recommended 'The Purpose Driven Church'.
Author of the book 'Babel'.
Author of 'If', a poem Tom Verilli used to memorize as a party trick in college.
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