Key Moments
American Division: A Conversation with David French (Episode #285)
Sam HarrisKey Moments
David French & Sam Harris discuss American societal divisions, political extremism, and the decline of liberalism.
Key Insights
American society is deeply divided by political, cultural, and social forces, exacerbating extremism on both left and right.
Real grievances, not just abstract ideologies, fuel political derangement and animosity, mirroring dynamics seen in Iraq.
Illiberalism is a growing threat across the political spectrum, challenging core tenets of American pluralism and classical liberalism.
The 'never Trump' stance, even from within conservative circles, led to significant personal harassment and societal pressure.
Evangelical support for Trump was driven by a persistent narrative of religious liberty under threat and, more alarmingly, by prophetic claims of his divine purpose.
The January 6th Capitol attack and related events highlight a dangerous breakdown in democratic norms and institutions, particularly within the Republican party.
THE ACCELERATING CRISIS OF AMERICAN DIVISION
David French, author of 'Divided We Fall,' posits that American society is experiencing an unprecedented acceleration of division, surpassing even his pessimistic predictions. This fragmentation isn't confined to politics but extends to where and how Americans live, influencing pop culture and daily life. French warns that the prospect of actual secession, once seemingly implausible, is becoming more conceivable due to the intensity of polarization and the erosion of unifying factors.
THE LEGACY OF IRAQ AND THE SEED OF GRIEVANCE
French draws a poignant parallel between the sectarian conflict in Iraq and current American divisions, identifying real grievances as the primary driver of societal strife. While theological or governance differences in Iraq might have been manageable, the deep-seated anger stemming from historical atrocities fueled the conflict. Similarly, in the U.S., abstract political disputes often mask a potent undercurrent of anger and genuine outrages, equally potent in driving polarization between left and right.
ILLIBERALISM'S REACH ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM
A significant threat discussed is the rise of illiberalism, which French argues is prevalent on both the far-left and far-right. This illiberalism manifests as a questioning of American classical liberalism and pluralism, with both ideological extremes showing a willingness to wield state power to enforce compliance rather than engage in reasoned debate. While their specific issues differ (e.g., trans rights vs. combating them), the underlying disregard for free speech and open discourse is a shared, dangerous characteristic.
THE 'NEVER TRUMP' EXPERIENCE AND INSTITUTIONAL PRESSURE
French recounts his personal experience as a 'never Trumper,' facing significant harassment, including death threats and the targeting of his family, after breaking with the Republican party over Donald Trump. Working at National Review, he witnessed the immense pressure on conservative institutions to conform to Trumpism. Despite the formal neutrality of the magazine's editorial stance, individual writers faced social and professional strain, highlighting the deep societal rifts even within seemingly allied groups.
PROPHETIC FAITH AND THE ENIGMA OF EVANGELICAL SUPPORT FOR TRUMP
The conversation delves into the complex reasons behind strong evangelical support for Donald Trump, a figure seemingly at odds with their professed values. Beyond the perceived threat to religious liberty, French highlights the significant role of self-proclaimed prophets who declared Trump divinely appointed to save America. This framing created an unfalsifiable narrative, casting opposition to Trump as opposition to God's will, thus intensifying religious commitment and fostering hostility towards detractors.
THE SPECTER OF JANUARY 6TH AND THE CORROSION OF DEMOCRACY
The events surrounding January 6th serve as a stark example of democratic erosion. French notes the sobering realization that even after the attack, Trump's approval within the Republican party increased while Mike Pence's, who upheld his constitutional duty, declined. This underscores a broader trend within the Republican party's capitulation to a personality cult and conspiracy theories, moving away from democratic principles toward a defense of a 'republic' that dismisses the tenets of a democratic republic.
THE DYNAMICS OF POLITICAL REJECTION AND COMMUNITY MIGRATION
The podcast explores the psychological aspect of political polarization, where individuals rejected or attacked by one community may seek solace and belonging in another. French acknowledges this human need for connection but warns that ignoring the flaws within a new-found ideological tribe can perpetuate societal problems. This leads to switching between flawed partisan groups, contributing to the crisis by validating the new group's often extreme positions.
THE ROLE OF PROPHECY IN FUELING FANATICISM
French elaborates on the influence of prophecy among certain evangelical circles, where Donald Trump was seen as having a unique divine purpose. This belief system made arguments against Trump unfalsifiable and framed opposition to him as inherently evil, thwarting God's plan. This religious intensity, coupled with the narrative that Trump's 2016 victory was divine intervention, created an extraordinary, almost ecstatic bond between Trump and his base, making them resistant to any attempts to question their loyalty.
ASYMMETRIES IN CULTURAL INFLUENCE AND INSTITUTIONAL DECAY
While acknowledging the significant cultural influence of institutions like The New York Times or elite universities, French points out asymmetries in how maladies are perceived. The breakdown in liberal institutions is seen as having a more pervasive, global reach. However, he contends that conservative institutions, such as evangelical churches or gun culture, exert immense influence in specific regions and demographics, suggesting that the right often downplays its own cultural dysfunction by comparison.
THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE 'NEAR ENEMY' IN EXTREMIST MOVEMENTS
Drawing on insights from conflict scholars, French explains that extremist movements often target the 'near enemy'—moderates within their own group—first. This purge is necessary to build solidarity for the larger conflict. This phenomenon explains the ferocity of 'cancel culture' often seen within ideological groups, where internal dissenters face harsher backlash than external opponents, contributing to a climate of fear and conformity.
Mentioned in This Episode
●Products
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●People Referenced
Common Questions
David French's book 'Divided We Fall' discusses the growing divisions within American society and the increasing, though often dismissed, prospect of actual secession or fragmentation of the United States.
Topics
Mentioned in this video
A magazine for which David French is a contributing writer.
A social movement mentioned as an example of an issue that can lead to intense backlash and 'reputational murder' from within one's own political tribe.
A scientific journal whose capitulation to 'woke' ideology is cited as an example of breakdown in elite institutions.
The American Civil Liberties Union, which is described as having become the 'antithesis' of its former self due to 'woke' ideology.
A major Protestant denomination where David French lives, whose cultural influence is seen as more potent in certain regions than that of institutions like Harvard or The New York Times.
A publication for which David French was a columnist.
A major newspaper whose perceived liberal bias and 'derangement' on issues like trans rights and jihadism are criticized.
David French's alma mater, where he graduated from.
A civil liberties nonprofit that David French formerly served as president for.
The reserve component of the US Army where David French served as a major.
An organization mentioned as an example of an elite institution that has seen a breakdown due to 'woke' ideology.
A medical journal whose capitulation to 'woke' ideology is cited as an example of breakdown in elite institutions.
A scientific journal whose capitulation to 'woke' ideology is cited as an example of breakdown in elite institutions.
The Ku Klux Klan, mentioned as an example of a white supremacist group whose flaws are obvious.
Former Vice President whose actions on January 6th are discussed, particularly his decision not to overturn the election results and the subsequent decline in his approval ratings within the Republican party.
A conspiracy theorist whose psychological and social equivalence to a sitting US President is mentioned as a unique danger.
Biblical figure whose writings are cited to contrast the 'spirit of fear' that drove some evangelicals towards political extremism with the 'spirit of power, love, and of sound mind' that scripture advocates.
Former US President whose actions and influence on the Republican party and the nation are a central topic of discussion, particularly concerning his election challenges and appeal to evangelicals.
Author of the 'Flight 93 election' essay, which argued for desperate measures to prevent a perceived collapse of religious liberty.
Senior editor at The Dispatch, contributing writer for The Atlantic, author of 'Divided We Fall: America's Secession Threat and How to Restore Our Nation'. He is a former constitutional litigator, US Army Reserve veteran, and religious conservative.
Former US President used as a reference point by David French regarding character standards in politics, contrasting his past criticism of Clinton with his stance on Trump.
Former Secretary of State and presidential candidate, whose potential presidency was seen by some evangelicals as an existential threat, motivating support for Trump.
A white supremacist and former Grand Wizard of the KKK, mentioned as an example of someone whose views are obviously disqualifying.
A Christian intellectual and author, mentioned as an example of someone influenced by prophecy regarding Donald Trump's divine mission.
Refers to the conservative political ideology associated with former President Ronald Reagan, which David French identified with in his youth.
The phenomenon of public withdrawal of support for public figures after they have done or said something considered objectionable or offensive, discussed as present on both the left and the right.
The other main branch of Islam, discussed in the context of the Iraqi civil war and the role of grievances in fueling division.
A far-right conspiracy theory movement, mentioned as a benchmark for how far the Republican party has moved towards embracing conspiracy theories.
David French's role as an Army lawyer in Iraq, where he experienced combat and was involved in decision-making for combat arms units.
A far-right ideology discussed as politically odious and a potential reservoir of violence, but not seen as driving culture in the same way as modern 'woke' ideology.
One of the two main branches of Islam, discussed in the context of the Iraqi civil war and the role of grievances in fueling division.
An issue related to the culture war, where the left is aggressive in advocating for them and the right is aggressive in combating them, both actions potentially driven by illiberalism.
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