How does Graeme Wood compare the US to failed states?

Wood notes that while the US doesn't have the total absence of government seen in places like Somalia or Iraq, it exhibits 'touches' of breakdown and a relative decline in performance compared to countries like Vietnam and Thailand, particularly regarding COVID-19 response.

What concerns Sam Harris and Graeme Wood about the current media landscape?

Both are concerned about media's business model favoring sensationalism, leading to distorted reporting that amplifies political partisanship and hysteria. They also note a breakdown of trust in once-reliable sources, including major newspapers and institutions like the CDC.

What is the critique of the left's response to social protests and violence?

The host criticizes the left for often getting specific claims wrong, particularly regarding police violence and looting. While acknowledging valid injustices, he argues that framing like NPR's interview on 'In Defense of Looting' can be radicalizing and unhelpful in sharp political discourse.

How is the Jacob Blake shooting portrayed differently by the media versus a closer analysis?

Mainstream media often frames the Jacob Blake shooting as a racial incident of police brutality. However, a closer look at the video and context, considering police operating in a high-risk environment with potential threats, suggests a more complex situation than a simple racial narrative.

What are the complexities surrounding the Kyle Rittenhouse incident?

The Rittenhouse case involves difficult questions about self-defense, gun ownership, the right to protest, and the potential for individuals to misjudge dangerous volatile situations. His presence with a firearm in a riot zone, regardless of his intentions, elevated the risks significantly.

What is the 'Ferguson Effect' and how does it relate to policing?

The Ferguson Effect suggests that police may reduce proactive policing out of fear of controversial encounters, leading to potential upticks in crime rates. This reluctance to engage can create a vacuum where individuals may feel compelled to take matters into their own hands.

What advice is given regarding personal security and self-defense?

The discussion emphasizes that avoidance should be the primary strategy. While acknowledging the right to self-defense, particularly with firearms, it stresses the importance of rigorous training, understanding scenarios, and not relying solely on calling 911. It cautions against becoming overly familiar with violent encounters, which can warp one's psychology.

Key Moments

A Conversation with Graeme Wood (Episode #216)

Sam Harris

Science & Technology3 min read51 min video

Sep 3, 2020|67,515 views|1,020|673

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Key Moments

TL;DR

US social order is breaking down due to loss of trust, media distortion, and political polarization fueling violence.

Key Insights

The US exhibits characteristics of a failing state, with declining trust in institutions and increasing political polarization.

Mainstream media is contributing to the breakdown by amplifying partisanship and hysteria, rather than de-escalating tensions.

The interpretation of events like the Jacob Blake shooting is heavily distorted by partisan narratives, ignoring complex realities.

Discussions around race in media and politics are often counterproductive, leading to greater polarization and less factual understanding.

The Kyle Rittenhouse case highlights the dangers of individuals taking on the role of vigilantism in a breakdown of social order.

A lack of nuanced understanding of violence and police work by the public fuels misinterpretations and escalates societal divisions.

SIGNS OF A FAILING STATE

Graeme Wood describes the United States as showing trends reminiscent of a failing state, citing public opinion shifts, pervasive disinformation, and a critical loss of trust in institutions. This breakdown is exacerbated by intense political polarization and a failure of sense-making among citizens. Unlike classic failed states like Somalia or Iraq, the US still possesses a functional government, but displays relative decline compared to other nations and pockets of severe social disintegration. This combination of governmental reach and localized chaos creates a deeply unsettling environment.

MEDIA'S ROLE IN ESCALATING TENSIONS

The conversation highlights how many reliable news sources are now distorting information, particularly concerning protests and police violence. The business model of media incentivizes shrillness and sensationalism, leading partisan outlets to amplify divisive narratives. This creates a 'runaway train' effect where hysteria, fueled by social media, becomes the norm. Even respected publications like The New York Times are criticized for getting critical facts wrong, thereby intensifying societal divisions and making rational discourse more difficult.

DISTORTED NARRATIVES OF POLICE VIOLENCE

The Jacob Blake shooting is presented as a prime example of how events are widely misrepresented. Mainstream media overwhelmingly framed it as a clear case of racist police violence against a Black man, emphasizing his being shot in the back. However, Wood and Harris argue this ignores crucial context, such as Blake resisting arrest and potentially reaching for a weapon. The tendency to frame such complex, ambiguous incidents into simplistic moral narratives, often ignoring visual evidence and the evolving nature of violent encounters, serves to deepen partisan divides rather than foster understanding.

THE PROBLEM OF EXAGGERATED RACE DISCOURSE

The pervasive emphasis on race in discussions about police violence is argued to be counterproductive. While acknowledging the historical significance of racism, the current tendency to inject race into nearly every relevant encounter is seen as divisive. This overemphasis leads to greater polarization, derangement, and a detachment from factual analysis. It fuels hysteria and ironically increases the likelihood of political outcomes, like the re-election of Donald Trump, that many find undesirable precisely because of this heightened, often inaccurate, racial tension.

THE RISKS OF VIGILANTISM AND LACK OF TRAINING

The Kyle Rittenhouse case is discussed as a worrying manifestation of vigilante action in response to perceived social breakdown and police inaction. Rittenhouse's decision to travel to Kenosha armed, despite his youth and likely lack of situational awareness in a riot, highlights the dangers of individuals inserting themselves into volatile situations. This is compounded by issues in policing, such as insufficient training and recruitment, leading officers to rely on more lethal force when less lethal options, like chokeholds, are banned. This creates a cycle where citizens feel they must arm themselves, further fueling potential conflict.

UNDERSTANDING VIOLENCE AND PUBLIC PERCEPTION

A key theme is the public's limited understanding of the realities of violence, police work, and self-defense. Many viewers consuming videos of police encounters lack the context of de-escalation failures, the threat of armed individuals, or the rapid evolution of lethal force scenarios. This lack of informed perspective leads to knee-jerk reactions and misjudgments, such as condemning police actions without full knowledge or advocating for extreme measures like looting. The discussion suggests that becoming a student of violence, while potentially informative, can also warp one's perception of risk if not approached with extreme scrupulousness and a focus on avoidance.

Mentioned in This Episode

●Organizations

●Books

●Concepts

●People Referenced

Common Questions

Graeme Wood primarily focuses on jihadism and the Islamic State, but he also writes opinion columns on societal breakdown in the United States, including issues of disinformation, polarization, and institutional failures.

Topics

Mindset & Self-Improvement Society & Philosophy Political Polarization Media Criticism Cultural Commentary Gun Control Politics & Policy Social Unrest Police Violence Protest Dynamics

Mentioned in this video

Books

The Way of the Strangers

Graeme Wood's book discussing the Islamic State and jihadism.

In Defense of Looting

Book by Vicky Osterweil arguing for the destruction of the current societal system, with looting and violence as central themes.

Locations

Iraq

Country cited as an example of extreme governmental breakdown and anarchy, used in comparison to US trends.

Kenosha

City in Wisconsin where social protests and police violence occurred, prompting discussion.

Thailand

Country mentioned as performing better than the US in handling COVID-19.

Somalia

Example of a country with a severely broken-down government and social order, used for comparison.

Oslo

The city in Norway where Graeme Wood was reached for the podcast recording.

Portland

City experiencing social protests and police violence, mentioned as part of the context for domestic unrest.

Zimbabwe

Country used as an example of a state with a collapsed currency and lack of control over law and order.

People

Chris Fussell

Partner of Stanley McChrystal, with whom Sam Harris discussed the potential for social breakdown under COVID-19.

Saddam Hussein

Former leader of Iraq, referenced in the context of a regime with total control over its citizens' lives.

Harold Varmus

Former head of the NIH and Nobel Prize winner, who wrote an op-ed suggesting distrust in the CDC.

Vicky Osterweil

Author of 'In Defense of Looting', a book that argues for the destruction of the current system through violence and revolution.

Sam Harris

Host of the Making Sense podcast, engaging in a discussion with Graeme Wood about current events, politics, and societal issues.

Donald Trump

Former US President, discussed in the context of political polarization, media distortion, and potential election denial.

Kyle Rittenhouse

Individual involved in a shooting incident, discussed extensively regarding self-defense, gun ownership, and the complexities of protest violence.

Joseph Rosenbaum

Individual shot by Kyle Rittenhouse, discussed in the context of his alleged instability and actions preceding the shooting.

Stanley McChrystal

Former commander of the Joint Special Operations Command, with whom Sam Harris discussed the potential for social breakdown under COVID-19.

Joe Biden

US President whose speech in Pittsburgh aimed to differentiate himself from far-left political figures.

John Korea

A former preacher who analyzes police self-defense videos, notable for his responsible and evidence-based commentary.

Graeme Wood

Author and writer, primarily for The Atlantic, who focuses on jihadism and societal breakdown. He is the author of 'The Way of the Strangers'.

Hillary Clinton

Former US Secretary of State, endorsed by The Atlantic during the last election.

Jacob Blake

Individual whose shooting by police in Kenosha became a catalyst for protests and wider discussion on police violence and race.

Organizations

NPR

News organization that published an interview seen as uncritical defense of looting and violence.

Black Lives Matter

Social movement whose framing of police violence is criticized by the podcast host as inaccurate and pandering.

Islamic State

Jihadist group that Graeme Wood has extensively written about.

New York Times

Major newspaper criticized for sometimes distorting news and amplifying partisanship, but still considered more reliable than social media.

The Atlantic

Publication where Graeme Wood frequently writes, known for its in-depth articles and opinion columns.

Vietnam

Country mentioned as performing better than the US in handling COVID-19.

CDC

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, questioned for being politicized during the pandemic.

Concepts

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

Martial art that Graeme Wood took up, leading to an article by Sam Harris.

Ferguson Effect

A hypothesized effect where police reduce proactive policing out of fear of OIS (officer-involved shootings) and subsequent negative publicity, potentially leading to increased crime.