Key Moments
Tony Schwartz: The Truth About Trump | Oxford Union Q&A
Oxford UnionKey Moments
Donald Trump's ghostwriter reveals the former president is a 'black hole' of self-interest, incapable of admitting fault and driven by a constant need for external validation. His persona, meticulously crafted by Schwartz, now poses a significant threat to democratic values.
Key Insights
Donald Trump has a "stunningly short attention span," making it difficult for him to focus on any single topic for more than 5-10 minutes, according to his ghostwriter.
Tony Schwartz, the ghostwriter of 'The Art of the Deal,' states that Trump's lies are "second nature" and employed as a means to gain advantage, often doubling down when challenged.
Schwartz describes Trump as a "black hole" with no internal sustenance, driven entirely by external validation, money, success, praise, and attention, none of which is ever enough.
Trump's ideology is defined by his mantra: "whatever. So long as I win and people notice," indicating a lack of deep convictions or core values.
Schwartz argues that Trump is both a racist and a misogynist, evidenced by his past business practices and his campaign rhetoric, particularly towards minority groups.
The ghostwriter believes Trump will not concede the election if he loses, predicting he will stoke anger among his supporters and claim the election was rigged.
Crafting a persona: The "Art of the Deal" and its ghostwriter
Tony Schwartz, the ghostwriter of Donald Trump's highly successful book 'The Art of the Deal,' shared his insights into Trump's character and the process of creating his public image. Schwartz, initially driven by a desire for public recognition and financial security, agreed to ghostwrite the autobiography, which Trump presented as his proudest achievement. He detailed how Trump, at 38, lacked the depth for an autobiography, leading Schwartz to suggest the title 'The Art of the Deal.' This collaboration, which provided Schwartz with a substantial portion of the advance ($250,000 in 1987-88) and royalties, marked a significant financial turning point for him but also led to a personal 'loss of moral compass.' Schwartz realized early on that Trump had a 'stunningly short attention span,' making interviews incredibly difficult. He often resorted to listening in on Trump's phone conversations for hours to gather material, filling in the gaps with details from others. This experience led him to believe that Trump was a 'journalist's dream' because he consistently did outrageous things, a pattern that never changed.
The "black hole" of self-interest
Schwartz characterizes Trump as a 'black hole,' lacking internal sustenance and constantly seeking external validation. He asserts that Trump is guided entirely by his perceived immediate self-interest and possesses an inability to admit fault. Money, success, praise, and attention are perpetual cravings that are never satisfied. This lack of deep convictions or core values allows Trump to shift positions effortlessly, with every belief being negotiable for the right price or advantage. His most profound commitment is to be perceived as a 'winner,' whatever that may entail on a given day, and to broadcast this perceived success widely, regardless of its actual basis. Schwartz highlights Trump's disregard for the truth, his lack of conscience about it, and his self-interest as alarming qualities for a president.
Truthful hyperbole: A justification for inaccuracy
A key challenge for Schwartz in writing 'The Art of the Deal' was dealing with Trump's frequent inaccuracies and outright lies, particularly concerning money, building valuations, and casino earnings. Trump's tendency to inflate his wealth and business success, even when on the verge of bankruptcy, was evident. To navigate these discrepancies, Schwartz coined the term 'truthful hyperbole,' which he defined as 'an innocent form of exaggeration and a very effective form of promotion.' He later admits this was 'insane' as hyperbole is inherently untruthful. Despite this rationalization, Schwartz acknowledges that he created a character in Trump who was far more appealing than the man himself, making him appear 'boyish, ingenuous, and even charming' rather than cynical and one-dimensional. This crafted persona, exemplified by Trump's introduction in the book, 'I don't do it for the money... I like making deals, preferably big deals. That's how I get my kicks,' was a deliberate transmutation of Trump's voice.
Disregard for truth and conscience
Schwartz emphasized Donald Trump's "utter disregard for the truth and his lack of conscience about that fact." He observed that Trump's accounts often contradicted those of lawyers, bankers, and brokers, who sometimes provided documents to support their claims. Despite undeniable evidence to the contrary, Trump had an unparalleled ability to convince himself that whatever he was saying was true, or at least should be considered true. Lying became second nature, a tool for gaining advantage. When challenged, Trump would double down rather than admit error, a tactic Schwartz described as 'huffing and puffing till he blows you down.' This consistent pattern of dishonesty and lack of accountability is presented as a fundamental character flaw that disqualifies him from the presidency.
Lack of personal connection and emotional depth
During the process of writing the book, Schwartz observed Trump's profound lack of interest in his family, including his then-wife Ivana and his young children. He also noted Trump's failure to remember Schwartz's wife's name or his children's names over a year and a half of interaction. Friendships for Trump were purely functional, reserved for those who facilitated his deals, and discarded when they no longer served a purpose. Beyond anger, Trump rarely engaged with other emotions. This anger could be a brief rage when challenged, particularly about his net worth (equated with personal worth), or it could be a calculated performance when it served his interests. This emotional detachment and inability to form lasting personal bonds are presented as further evidence of his character deficiencies.
Trump as a "shadow side" and the author's own journey
Schwartz reflected that he was drawn to Trump partly because he represented the 'shadow side' of himself. He recognized his own hunger for recognition and financial security in Trump's motivations, even though his own upbringing was less extreme. The experience of writing 'The Art of the Deal' haunted him for 30 years, leading him to write subsequent books and run a company focused on helping people manage their energy more skillfully and live more productive lives, as a way to move away from the values Trump represented. He learned that personal growth involves embracing both the best and worst aspects of oneself, a concept he believes Trump has never grasped, living a life of external validation rather than internal wholeness. Schwartz encourages the audience to embrace their full selves, 'seeing more and excluding less.'
The dangerous implications of Trump's character for the presidency
Schwartz expressed his belief that Trump's characterological deficiencies are so profound that they preclude him from being president. He warned that Trump's tendency to stoke anger and fear, particularly among disenfranchised individuals, combined with his inability to admit defeat, could lead to a dangerous and tense period following an election loss. He predicted that Trump would never concede, instead claiming the election was rigged to avoid the feeling of being 'obliterated.' The ghostwriter also touched upon the role of income inequality and disillusionment with traditional institutions as drivers of Trump's support, suggesting that while Trump's rhetoric may resonate with those feeling abandoned, he ultimately does not care about their well-being. The influence of figures like Steve Bannon is also seen as pushing Trump towards more extreme, alt-right rhetoric as the election approaches.
Racism, misogyny, and the nature of Trump's support
When asked directly, Schwartz confirmed that he believes Trump is both a racist and a misogynist. He cited Trump's business practices and campaign rhetoric, particularly his statements about Mexicans, Muslims, and women, as evidence. He described Trump's racism as peculiar, noting admiration for a select few successful black men (prize fighters and football players) while showing little regard for others. Similarly, he suggested Trump viewed Jewish people primarily as effective financial managers. Regarding misogyny, he pointed to the numerous accusations of sexual assault and the high barrier women face in coming forward, implying a large number of unacknowledged instances. Schwartz also addressed the support Trump receives from educated individuals, suggesting that fear, rather than rational appeal, drives this support, tapping into a more primal part of the brain that can override intellect.
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Common Questions
Tony Schwartz wrote 'The Art of the Deal' primarily due to financial concerns for his family, rationalizing that the book deal would provide security. Despite knowing Trump was a 'bad actor' and it might harm his journalistic credibility, he accepted a lucrative offer.
Topics
Mentioned in this video
A book written by Tony Schwartz after 'The Art of the Deal,' aimed at exploring reflective and intentional lives.
A character from the novel by Nikos Kazantzakis, referred to for his 'full catastrophe' acceptance of life.
The book written by Tony Schwartz with Donald Trump. The speaker details how the book came about, the financial arrangement, and its impact on his own life and perception.
Filmmaker whose quote about Trump resonating with hurting people is discussed.
One of Donald Trump's biographers, whose tapes of interviews with Trump are referenced.
A psychologist cited for his views on self-love, including the acceptance of the 'shadow self.'
Donald Trump's then-wife during the period when Tony Schwartz was writing 'The Art of the Deal'. She is described as unhappy about Schwartz's presence.
Mentioned as influencing Trump's campaign, particularly his shift towards more alt-right rhetoric.
The subject of the talk, a real estate developer who ran for president. The speaker discusses his character, actions, and potential presidency, contrasting his own journey with Trump's.
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