Key Moments
The Politics of Unreality: Ukraine and Nuclear Risk: A Conversation with Timothy Snyder (#301)
Key Moments
Timothy Snyder discusses Ukraine, Russian propaganda, Putin's motives, and nuclear risk.
Key Insights
Russian claims about historical ties to Ukraine are imperialistic and ignore legal and treaty-based borders.
Putin's actions are driven by a desire for historical legacy and a distorted, possibly fascistic, worldview, not solely Russian national interests.
The concept of 'schizophascism' describes how fascists can claim to be fighting fascists, a propaganda tactic used by Russia.
Russian propaganda aims to create a 'politics of unreality' by eroding trust in democratic institutions and promoting cynicism about values.
NATO and EU enlargement are driven by the sovereign choices of member states, not by Western coercion.
Fear of NATO is largely a pretext; Putin's goal is to exert control over Ukraine, not to create a buffer zone.
CHALLENGING RUSSIAN HISTORICAL CLAIMS ON UKRAINE
Timothy Snyder firmly refutes the Russian narrative that Ukraine is historically inseparable from Russia. He emphasizes that international borders, once agreed upon by treaty, are legally binding, irrespective of historical interpretations. Snyder argues that relying on historical claims to justify invasions would invalidate all global borders. He specifically addresses Crimea, detailing its complex history, its long periods outside of Russian control, and the forced deportations of its native Crimean Tatar population by Stalin in 1944, which significantly altered its demographics before its transfer to Ukrainian SSR in 1954. This historical context debunks the notion of an 'always Russian' Crimea and underscores the agency of Ukrainian nationhood.
THE FALL OF THE SOVIET UNION AND UKRAINIAN INDEPENDENCE
Snyder clarifies that the end of the Soviet Union was not an American plot but a Russian initiative, debunking a commonégation used by Putin. He highlights that the Soviet Union's very structure acknowledged the existence of a Ukrainian nation, leading to Ukraine being a nominal federal republic. The dissolution in 1991 was formalized by the leaders of the Russian and Ukrainian republics agreeing to recognize each other's borders, a decision overwhelmingly supported by a Ukrainian referendum. This established Ukraine as a sovereign state, with its subsequent drift towards Western institutions reflecting the will of its people, not external coercion.
PUTIN'S EVOLVING IDEOLOGY AND THE RISE OF FASCISM
The conversation delves into Vladimir Putin's ideological evolution, moving from a 'dictatorship of law' to a politics of spectacle and imperial ambition. Snyder identifies Putin's ideas as increasingly tinged with fascism, citing his admiration for Russian fascist thinker Ivan Ilyin. Fascism, as defined by Snyder, prioritizes 'will and imagination' over rationality, views endless conflict as normal, and defines identity through the choice of an enemy. In this context, Russia is defined as 'anti-Ukraine,' a tactic to give meaning to a state lacking a clear vision for its future. This ideological shift explains the imperialistic war against a democracy, framed through absurd 'denazification' claims.
THE STRATEGY OF 'SCHIZOPHASCISM' AND PROPAGANDA
Snyder introduces the concept of 'schizophascism,' where fascists falsely claim to be fighting against fascists and Nazis. This is a key element of Russian propaganda, designed to create confusion and a 'politics of unreality.' The aim is not necessarily to convince others of the falsehoods, but to foster a sense of cynicism and uncertainty, making people question the possibility of distinguishing between good and bad systems of governance. This nihilistic approach aims to paralyze democratic societies by convincing them that all systems are equally flawed, thereby undermining any basis for democratic organization or moral conviction.
RUSSIA'S MOTIVATIONS AND GEOPOLITICAL MISCALCULATIONS
Contrary to claims of fearing NATO expansion, Snyder argues that Russia is not afraid of the alliance. Evidence suggests this fear is a pretext to legitimize control over Ukraine. Putin's actions, such as diverting troops from NATO borders to fight in Ukraine, paradoxically weaken Russia's security. Snyder posits that Putin is not acting in Russia's traditional geopolitical interests, but is driven by a personal quest for historical legacy, akin to Peter the Great. This pursuit of a grand, albeit delusional, historical mark on 'Russian lands' has led to a catastrophic miscalculation, weakening Russia and pushing it further into dependency on China.
THE 'LAWLESSNESS' OF A TYRANT AND NUCLEAR BLACKMAIL
The discussion pivots to the nuclear dimension and the perception of nuclear blackmail. Snyder emphasizes that Putin's actions suggest he is not acting based on Russia's interests but is instead driven by personal fantasies and a tyrannical trajectory. His grip on power for decades has possibly led to a detachment from reality, where his own obsessions dictate state resources. This creates an 'intolerable risk' as he pursues his vision, potentially including nuclear threats. Snyder dismisses the idea that Ukraine's status as a non-NATO state justifies appeasement, highlighting that invading Ukraine alienated it and pushed it West, a direct consequence of Moscow's choices.
THE ROLE OF NIHILISM AND AMERICAN POLITICAL DIVISIONS
Snyder and Harris explore the 'nihilist adjacent' cohort, particularly within 'trumpistan,' who dismiss Russian interference as a 'hoax.' This group, motivated by a desire to 'put American interests first' and 'make America great again,' often exhibits a profound loss of contact with moral imperatives. They embrace a delusion that minimizes external threats and distrusts established institutions. This aligns with Russian propaganda's strategy of portraying Western democracies as equally corrupt, fostering a climate where distinguishing right from wrong becomes impossible, ultimately benefiting Russia's destabilization efforts.
THE CORE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DEMOCRACY AND DESPOTISM
A fundamental distinction is drawn between the expansion of democracy and the imposition of despotic control. Unlike Russia's forcible expansion, institutions like NATO and the EU admit new members when sovereign states, through democratic processes, choose to join. The desire for membership stems from the populations' lived experiences and aspirations. Snyder argues that this voluntary association is a crucial difference, contrasting sharply with Russia's attempt to unilaterally impose its order through force. Criticizing such actions is not equivalent to accepting Russian claims or validating its narratives of Western provocation.
Mentioned in This Episode
●Organizations
●Books
●Concepts
●People Referenced
Common Questions
Timothy Snyder, a professor of history at Yale and Ukraine expert, argues against the idea that supporting Ukraine has gone too far and risks WWIII unnecessarily. He believes that criticisms about provoking Putin and the idea that Ukraine isn't a real country are based on misconceptions and imperialistic thinking.
Topics
Mentioned in this video
Professor of history at Yale University, author of 'On Tyranny' and an expert on Ukraine and Russia.
Artist (also known as Yay) whose recent anti-Semitic remarks on the 'Drink Champs' podcast are discussed.
Mentioned as a non-subject matter expert whose commentary on supporting Ukraine is being addressed.
Empress of Russia, mentioned in the context of the Russian Empire's involvement in Crimea.
The chief Russian fascist thinker, cited regularly by Putin and influencing his ideology.
Venture capitalist whose commentary on Ukraine and calls for de-escalation are examined.
Physicist whose commentary on Ukraine and calls for de-escalation are examined.
Documentarian whose film was attacked by 'identitarian grievance entrepreneurs', leading to public support and a successful GoFundMe.
Economist whose commentary on Ukraine and calls for de-escalation are examined. He suggested NATO expansion was provocative.
The current state of Russia, whose border with Ukraine was agreed upon in 1991.
Region in Ukraine discussed in the context of Russian claims and Western commentary.
A peninsula whose historical relationship with Russia and Ukraine is detailed, refuting Russian claims of historical ownership.
The historical state that dissolved in 1991, whose borders became the independent states' borders, and whose existence recognized Ukraine as a nation.
The primary focus of the discussion, including its history, sovereignty, and relationship with Russia and the West.
One of Timothy Snyder's books bearing on Ukrainian history.
A book by Timothy Snyder, recently updated in audio format to cover the war in Ukraine.
Referred to as a benchmark for the extent of anti-Semitic confabulation in Kanye West's remarks.
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