Key Moments
Joshua Skenes Interview (Full Episode) | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)
Tim FerrissKey Moments
Chef Joshua Skenes discusses simplicity, fire, martial arts, and the pursuit of essentialism in cooking.
Key Insights
Skenes emphasizes "play with fire" as a central philosophy, using flame in virtually every dish at Saison.
The concept of 'freshness' in food is complex; Skenes advocates for understanding a product's peak moment for flavor and texture.
Martial arts, particularly internal styles like Baguazhang, heavily influence Skenes' approach to cooking, service, and life through principles like simplicity and essentialism.
Hunting and foraging are integral to Skenes' culinary philosophy, connecting him to the provenance of food and promoting a zero-waste approach.
Skenes prioritizes mentorship and creating an exceptional workplace culture, moving away from abusive 'drill sergeant' kitchen mentalities.
The pursuit of genuine joy and freedom, rather than external accolades, defines Skenes' definition of success.
THE PHILOSOPHY OF FIRE AND ESSENTIALISM
Joshua Skenes, the chef-owner of the three-Michelin-starred Saison, centers his culinary approach around the primal element of fire, encapsulated by his business card motto, "Play with Fire." This isn't merely a gimmick but a fundamental principle that informs nearly every dish. Skenes emphasizes stripping away the inessential to arrive at the core of flavor and experience, a philosophy deeply influenced by his lifelong engagement with martial arts. This pursuit of the essential extends to every facet of the restaurant, from the ingredients themselves to the service provided to guests.
UNDERSTANDING THE PEAK OF PRODUCTS
Skenes challenges the conventional notion that 'fresh' is always best, advocating instead for a deep understanding of when a product reaches its peak flavor and texture. This requires meticulous observation and knowledge of aging processes for everything from fish to game. He explains that for certain fish, the optimal window could be immediately after preparation or after a significant aging period, depending on the specific product and its fat content. This nuanced approach to product knowledge is crucial for elevating ingredients to their highest potential.
MARTIAL ARTS AS A LENS FOR LIFE AND COOKING
His martial arts journey, which began in childhood, profoundly shapes Skenes' worldview and culinary practices. He draws parallels between the discipline, focus, and pursuit of essential movements in internal Chinese martial arts like Baguazhang and his approach to cooking. For Skenes, martial arts teach patience, resilience, and the importance of constant practice to master fundamental techniques. This philosophy translates directly into his kitchen, where simplicity, efficiency, and a deep understanding of technique are paramount, aiming for an "essential nature" in every dish and interaction.
THE ROLE OF HUNTING AND FORAGING
A significant aspect of Skenes' culinary identity is his deep connection to hunting and foraging. Growing up surrounded by nature in Florida instilled this ethos early on, emphasizing using every part of an animal and respecting the environment. This practice carries forward into Saison, where sourcing ethically hunted game and foraged ingredients is a priority. He views this connection to the wild as a vital counterpoint to industrialized food systems, offering a more sustainable and reverent way to engage with food and its origins.
CULTIVATING A NEW KITCHEN CULTURE
Skenes has evolved from traditional, often harsh, kitchen environments to fostering a culture of mentorship and respect. He contrasts the old 'drill sergeant' mentality with a desire to create an 'exceptional workplace,' drawing inspiration from martial arts' emphasis on patience and guidance. His goal is to equip his team with the knowledge and skills to not only excel at Saison but also to carry that expertise forward. This focus on staff development and creating a supportive atmosphere is central to his long-term vision for the restaurant.
DEFINING SUCCESS AND FUTURE ASPIRATIONS
For Skenes, true success is not measured by accolades but by achieving personal joy and pursuing activities that bring happiness, particularly through immersion in nature. He envisions a future where he can spend more time in the woods, hunting, foraging, and cooking, disconnected from the complexities of city life. This reflects a broader societal lesson he hopes to impart: focusing on what genuinely matters and brings contentment, rather than being sidetracked by superficial markers of success like fame or material possessions.
Mentioned in This Episode
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●Software & Apps
●Companies
●Organizations
●Books
●Concepts
●People Referenced
Common Questions
Joshua Skenes returned to eating meat after a dream where he ate a giant squid. He then craved and ate salt and pepper squid, which he describes as the best thing he had ever eaten, marking his return to consuming animal products.
Topics
Mentioned in this video
An old bar book Joshua Skenes gifts to his staff, focusing on pure craft and technique, possibly by a Tokyo bartender.
A well-put-together cookbook mentioned by Tim Ferriss as inspirational.
A number one New York Times bestseller by Tim Ferriss, for which he used 99designs for book cover prototypes.
Tim Ferriss's book about accelerated learning disguised as a cookbook, for which Joshua Skenes provided insights.
Cookbook by Francis Mallmann, which inspired Tim Ferriss during the writing of 'The 4-Hour Chef' for its refined basic techniques.
A well-put-together cookbook mentioned by Tim Ferriss as inspirational.
A book about Tai Chi by Joe Swaa, noted for its insights into the martial application and health benefits of Tai Chi.
Movie based on the life of chess prodigy Joshua Waitzkin.
A design platform used for graphic design needs like logos, websites, and business cards. Tim Ferriss used it for prototypes for 'The 4-Hour Body' and other branding.
A popular app for guided meditation, recommended for its simplicity and effectiveness in improving life with just 10 minutes a day.
Content management system, whose lead developer Matt Mullenweg was mentioned.
Tim Ferriss's free weekly email newsletter, mentioned as a popular resource.
Netflix documentary series featuring notable chefs, including Francis Mallmann and Jiro.
The podcast hosted by Tim Ferriss, where he deconstructs world-class performers.
Television show on which Tim Ferriss's caribou mount was featured. Hosted by Steve Rinella.
Film referenced by Tim Ferriss in response to Joshua Skenes's story about stealing money from Subway.
TV show mentioned by Tim Ferriss as a 'fantasy escape' for people interested in country living, hunting, foraging, and fishing.
Former national team gymnastics coach, with whom Tim Ferriss is doing remote gymnastics training.
Legendary Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioner, under whom Joshua Waitzkin became the first black belt.
Outdoor survival expert and friend of Tim Ferriss featured in 'The 4-Hour Chef', who makes bows and arrows from scratch and hunts black bear.
Avid cook and hunter, who introduced Tim Ferriss to responsible hunting practices with a whitetail deer hunt.
Chef and presenter of the 'River Cottage' TV show, known for his back-to-the-land approach to food.
Chef who poached Joshua Skenes from Shay TJ to do development work and teach him business.
Founder of Headspace, mentioned for his highly viewed TED Talk on meditation.
Chef-owner of Saison, famous for his use of fire in cooking and his martial arts background. Discusses his philosophy on food, hunting, and life.
Creative designer responsible for the 'Play with Fire' slogan on Skenes's old business card and work for the Monterey Bay Aquarium.
A restaurateur and friend of Tim Ferriss who accompanied him to Saison's old location and praised the meal.
A Native American friend of Joshua Skenes's father, who instilled an ethos of ethical hunting and using what you kill.
An amazing Tai Chi teacher from Chen Village in China, whose lineage Joshua Skenes traced.
The last surviving member of Foo style Baguazhang, with whom Joshua Skenes studied for about 10 years until his death.
A very well-known French chef mentioned by Skenes as a benchmark for culinary excellence and reality testing.
Martial artist and philosopher; his quote about fearing the man who practiced one kick 10,000 times (rather than 10,000 kicks once) is referenced by Tim Ferriss.
Joshua Skenes's first Chinese martial arts teacher in Florida, described as a living example of truthfulness, peacefulness, and patience.
A masterful interviewer and podcast guest of Tim Ferriss, who lost notes for a year-and-a-half-long piece due to flooding, receiving the advice 'the good shit sticks'.
Philosophical chef known for cooking in nature, particularly in Patagonia, and his use of fire. Skenes admires his ethos but not his charring techniques.
Chef known for bold flavors, used as an example of 'volume 10' cooking, in contrast to Skenes's preference for delicate, 'volume 2' flavors.
Author of 'The Tao of Taijiquan', who started Tai Chi at 40 due to bad health and became a foremost expert.
Comedian, whose mobility Skenes jokingly compares his knees to when he feels unstable during hunting.
Master Tai Chi practitioner (Push Hands world champion), first BJJ black belt under Marcelo Garcia, and former chess prodigy (basis for 'Searching for Bobby Fischer').
CEO of Automattic and lead developer of WordPress, who texted Tim Ferriss after seeing Joshua Waitzkin practice Tai Chi.
The company led by Matt Mullenweg, the CEO and lead developer of WordPress.
Another San Francisco restaurant that received three Michelin stars alongside Saison.
Fast-food chain where Joshua Skenes worked as a teenager, jokingly mentioned for its operating manual and a story of illicit activity.
Used by Skenes as an aspirational model for creating an exceptional workplace and mentorship program at Saison, despite not knowing much about its internal operations.
A well-known bar in Tokyo, mentioned in connection with the 'Cocktail Techniques' book.
Resort in Orange County where Joshua Skenes opened a restaurant for Michael Mina as a temporary gig.
The system for rating restaurants, Saison was one of the first in San Francisco to receive three stars.
Culinary school Joshua Skenes attended, later renamed ICC (International Culinary Center).
A three-Michelin-starred restaurant in San Francisco, co-owned by Chef Joshua Skenes, known for its focus on fire cooking and natural, essential ingredients.
An aquarium that Jim Alwine, a designer who worked with Skenes, does design work for.
The current name of the French Culinary Institute, where Joshua Skenes studied.
An internal Chinese martial art that Joshua Skenes specialized in, described as the 'art of evasion' and beneficial for suppleness and strength.
Refers to the eight trigrams, a binary system forming the basis of a cosmology described by Skenes.
The void, the beginning of everything in the philosophical system related to Bagua.
A style of Chinese martial arts. Mentioned in context of early training for Joshua Skenes.
An internal Chinese martial art, one of the three families Skenes chose to specialize in. Praised for its healthfulness and stability.
The style of Tai Chi that Joshua Skenes's teacher studied under Chen Xiaowang.
The specific style of Bagua Zhang that Joshua Skenes traced his lineage back to and studied.
A 'harder fight sport' mentioned by Tim Ferriss, which he was focused on before his interest in Tai Chi was reignited.
A 'harder fight sport' mentioned by Tim Ferriss. Joshua Waitzkin is noted as having achieved a black belt under Marcelo Garcia.
A two-person Tai Chi training routine, for which Joshua Waitzkin was a world champion.
High-end Japanese knives that Chef Skenes loves.
A type of fish, which can be aged for up to 6 months depending on the fish characteristics. Skenes mentions 'monkey face eels' found in California waters.
Also known as pigeon, which Skenes ages for approximately two weeks, depending on the diet and time of year.
The animal Tim Ferriss hunted with Steve Rinella, using every part of the animal from field dressing to tanning the skin for gloves.
The type of wood used by Cliff Hodges to make bows.
Food made from leached acorns, discussed as a substantial portion of indigenous North American tribes' diets.
Reference point for a piece Cal Fussman was working on, discussing 9/11 and its interruption of his work.
Region where Francis Mallmann is known for cooking outdoors; mentioned as an aspirational location for immersive cooking experiences.
City in Japan where Skenes loves a restaurant that serves delicate, wild foods with understated broths, representing 'volume 1' cooking.
Area in California mentioned as having wild kiwis, ginseng root, and various berries.
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