Key Moments
Ben Shapiro: Politics, Kanye, Trump, Biden, Hitler, Extremism, and War | Lex Fridman Podcast #336
Lex FridmanKey Moments
Ben Shapiro discusses Kanye, Trump, Biden, the nature of evil, free speech, social media, and the meaning of life.
Key Insights
Kanye West's anti-Semitic comments are unequivocally awful and rooted in textbook bigotry, potentially exacerbated by bipolarism.
The breakdown of democracy, like in Nazi Germany, illustrates that evil is present in every human heart and can be exploited when fear motivates alliances with extreme figures.
True free speech means allowing even bad ideas to be expressed, as the alternative is dangerous censorship by unelected gatekeepers, a principle exemplified by the debate over Elon Musk's Twitter acquisition and platforms' role in information dissemination.
Critiquing policies, like Israel's, is distinct from anti-Semitic criticism that denies a group's right to self-determination, emphasizing that distinctions are crucial in political discourse.
Human beings are highly adaptable, making adaptation a more realistic response to long-term challenges like climate change than unworkable mitigation efforts.
Meaning in life is found in fulfilling traditional human roles (parent, spouse, citizen, creator) within a society that protects both these roles and the freedom to express individuality within them.
KANYE WEST'S ANTI-SEMITISM AND THE NATURE OF BIGOTRY
Ben Shapiro describes Kanye West's comments about Jewish people as "awful and anti-Semitic," noting their progression from problematic tweets to stereotypical tropes about Jewish control of media and finance, echoing sentiments found in "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." Shapiro attributes these remarks to potential bipolarism, which can lead individuals to speak and believe in misguided ideas excessively. He identifies a core logical error in Kanye's statements: the jump from an individual's negative actions to a generalization about an entire group, which is a hallmark of bigotry. This form of anti-Semitism is distinct from ethnic or religious anti-Semitism, often manifesting as a conspiracy theory about a shadowy cabal controlling power.
LESSONS FROM THE RISE OF HITLER AND THE BANALITY OF EVIL
The historical rise of Hitler and Nazism offers critical lessons on human nature and the fragility of democracy. Shapiro emphasizes that Hitler was elected into a power structure already centralized due to the collapse of the Weimar Republic, highlighting how radical sentiments can be exploited. He posits that an underlying current would have led to atrocities regardless of whether communists or Nazis took power, driven by the desire to stop a perceived greater evil. The critical insight is that evil rarely presents itself clearly; people are capable of supporting morally reprehensible figures when blinded by political polarization, believing their enemies are a threat to the republic, thus justifying any means to stop them.
NAVIGATING HATE AND THE ONUS OF RESPONSIBILITY
Shapiro firmly states that individuals are solely responsible for their violent actions, rejecting the notion that political rhetoric directly causes violence unless it explicitly advocates it. He emphasizes that blaming broad political discourse for individual acts of violence would erode free speech, as it would lead to curbing speech deemed potentially inflammatory. For misguided but not mentally ill individuals with hate in their hearts, Shapiro advises seeking meaning and purpose through forming connections, promoting general prosperity, and actively contributing to their communities, advocating for maturity, employment, marriage, and family as pathways to a fulfilling life, never violence.
THE NUANCE OF CRITICISM: ISRAEL AND POLITICAL OPPONENTS
Shapiro distinguishes between legitimate criticism of a nation's policies and anti-Semitic attacks that deny a group's right to national self-determination. He regularly criticizes Israeli policies, but contrasts this with Ilhan Omar's stance, who he believes fundamentally rejects Israel's existence as a Jewish state and propagates false narratives like it being an "apartheid state." When critiquing "the left," Shapiro clarifies he addresses a philosophy rather than individual people, differentiating between liberals and those who seek to silence opposing viewpoints. He admits that political rhetoric can sometimes be overbroad, as exemplified by President Biden's "MAGA Republican" comments.
MENTAL RESILIENCE AND THE LURE OF SOCIAL MEDIA
To manage the constant online attacks and avoid resentment, Shapiro employs practical strategies like removing Twitter from his phone, thereby making engagement a conscious decision rather than an impulsive one. He stresses the importance of surrounding oneself with trusted individuals who offer sincere critiques from a place of genuine care, rather than sycophants or those driven by hatred. He views the majority of online critiques as driven by cruelty rather than sophisticated intellectual engagement, recognizing Twitter as a "place to smack and be smacked." This disciplined approach underscores his efforts to prevent the internet's negativity from mentally breaking him.
ELON MUSK, TWITTER, AND THE HISTORY OF MEDIA
Shapiro expresses optimism about Elon Musk's acquisition of Twitter, viewing it as a move to broaden the "Overton window" and allow for a wider range of mainstream, albeit heterodox, conversations previously suppressed. He critiques the historical shift in media from an oligopoly of mainstream outlets to the internet's initial explosion of diverse sources, followed by social media platforms re-establishing informational control after 2016. He argues that Elon's vision of Twitter as a "Town Square" aligns with the principle of fighting bad speech with more speech, rather than relying on a "group of thought bosses" to dictate what information is permissible, citing the Hunter Biden laptop story as a prime example of problematic censorship.
TRUMP, BIDEN, AND THE COMPLEXITY OF LEADERSHIP
Shapiro offers nuanced views on both Donald Trump and Joe Biden. He admires Trump's willingness to act unconventionally, citing his Middle East peace deals and the Jerusalem embassy relocation as successes. However, he criticizes Trump's unfiltered communication and focus on grievances. For Biden, Shapiro praises his apparent dedication as a father and his old-school, handshake-driven political style. Yet, he criticizes Biden for allowing his party's radicalism to sway his policies, leading to divisive rhetoric and actions contrary to his unifying mandate. Shapiro argues that Afghanistan withdrawal was a failure due to poor planning, despite the underlying desire for disengagement.
THE HUNTER BIDEN LAPTOP AND INFORMATION DISSEMINATION
The Hunter Biden laptop story is significant for two reasons: its relevance to potential influence peddling by the president's son and, more importantly, the media and social media blackout surrounding it. Shapiro argues that suppressing the story prevented its natural life cycle of normal journalistic inquiry and public discourse, leading to unchecked speculation. He criticizes the linguistic shift from "disinformation" (deliberately false, often foreign-sourced) to "misinformation" (mistaken or out-of-context), which he finds overly subjective and susceptible to partisan bias. The preemptive silencing of stories that tend to negatively affect one political side undermines public trust in information gatekeepers, confirming conspiracy theories.
DEBATE, DISCOURSE, AND THE PURSUIT OF TRUTH
Shapiro describes his debate style as generally cordial, focusing on clarifying terms and ideas rather than personal attacks, reserving "destroying" for situations where opponents engage in trolling. He views debate as a means to understand positions and find common ground, acknowledging that perceived disagreements often stem from semantic misunderstandings. He actively listens and tries to "steelman" opposing arguments. He's proud to recommend listeners explore differing viewpoints, a practice he observes is rare on the political left. He also recounts losing his composure in a BBC interview, acknowledging it as a mistake stemming from lack of research and an overly adversarial approach.
THE UKRAINE WAR: GEOSTRATEGIC INTERESTS AND OFF-RAMPS
Shapiro criticizes pre-war Western policy towards Ukraine for encouraging NATO/EU aspirations without offering genuine protection, thereby provoking Russia without providing security. Once the war began, the West's primary responsibility was to supply Ukraine with necessary military aid. He believes the U.S. has largely achieved its geostrategic goals: preserving borders, degrading Russian military power, and rebalancing Europe away from Russia and China. He argues that a realistic off-ramp is needed for Putin, likely involving Ukraine ceding Crimea and parts of Luhansk/Donetsk, with a firm Western defense pact. Such a deal would require courageous leadership from President Biden to negotiate an agreement that offers Putin a face-saving exit, even if politically unpopular for Zelenskyy.
LIVING A MEANINGFUL LIFE: ROLES, RULES, AND LIBERTY
Shapiro believes the meaning of life is to fulfill the roles for which humans were created, such as parent, spouse, citizen, and creator. He proposes "role ethics" as a framework, suggesting that meaning is found in navigating these universal, deeply personal roles. A good society, he argues, promotes and protects these roles while safeguarding the liberty within them. He views liberty instrumentally—it is good because it allows us to achieve X, Y, or Z—rather than as an ultimate good itself. He contends that both the left and right misunderstand liberty by sometimes treating it as an inherent value, risking the destruction of societal institutions that underpin these freedoms if left unchecked.
FAITH, MORALITY, AND THE NATURAL GOODNESS OF MAN
Shapiro describes faith as an ongoing struggle with God, inherent to the human condition. He defines God as the underlying cause and logic of the universe, with an interest in humans living in accordance with its laws. He attributes human cruelty to God's non-intervention, preserving free will, and natural suffering to God's purposeful self-obscurity, which allows for faith. He believes atheists can be good people by adhering to moral rules without belief in God, drawing on shared judeo-christian societal values. However, he does not believe in the "natural goodness of mankind," arguing that without social institutions to shape them, humans left to their own devices tend towards tribalism and violence.
CLIMATE CHANGE, ADAPTATION, AND NUCLEAR ENERGY
Shapiro accepts anthropogenic climate change as a reality, aligning with IPCC estimates. However, he is skeptical of currently proposed mitigation strategies, such as the Paris Climate Accords or the Green New Deal, deeming them unworkable, geopolitically unrealistic, and insufficient to significantly alter the projected temperature increase. He emphasizes humanity's strong capacity for adaptation over mitigation. Instead of focusing on carbon taxes or current green technologies, he advocates for investment in adaptation strategies like seawalls, geoengineering, and technologies to remove carbon from the air. He is a strong proponent of nuclear energy, calling it a proven and essential solution for addressing climate change.
THE IMPORTANCE OF RESPECT OVER UNIVERSAL LOVE
Shapiro distinguishes between the intense love he feels for his family and a broader respect for strangers. He suggests that attempting to extend intense "love" to all humanity is unrealistic and potentially counterproductive, risking being inauthentic or leading to a "cram-down utopianism" that can erode necessary solidarity within closer circles. He argues that respect for other people's dignity, priorities, and roles in life is a more solid and achievable foundation for interactions with those outside one's immediate circle of love. He believes that from this foundation of respect, genuine love can eventually grow as relationships develop.
Mentioned in This Episode
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Common Questions
Ben Shapiro finds Kanye West's comments awful and anti-Semitic, describing them as stereotypical garbage direct from 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' type rhetoric. He speculates that Kanye's behavior may be influenced by a manic episode related to bipolar disorder, distorting his common sense and leading him to generalize negative experiences with individuals to the entire Jewish group.
Topics
Mentioned in this video
One of Ben Shapiro's books.
One of Ben Shapiro's books.
One of Ben Shapiro's books.
An infamous anti-Semitic forgery, referenced by Shapiro when describing the stereotypical nature of Kanye West's comments.
A book about Vladimir Putin that Lex Fridman read and found objective, contrasting with more critical biographies.
A book about Putin that Ben Shapiro read, but found highly critical and possibly injected with activism.
A series of essays arguing for the ratification of the United States Constitution, cited as influential for understanding American politics.
An introductory economics book by Henry Hazlitt, recommended by Shapiro for teenagers and anyone seeking an easy-to-understand primer on macroeconomics.
A book by Thomas Sowell, mentioned as being longer and more complex than 'Economics in One Lesson.'
A book by Carl Truman, which Shapiro considers the best book of the last 10 years for its insights on the shift in identity formation in the West.
A philosopher at Princeton, known for a thought experiment about people's self-perception of their moral standing in historical contexts, illustrating that evil lies in every human heart.
Conservative political commentator, host of The Ben Shapiro Show, co-founder of The Daily Wire, and author of several books. The subject of this interview.
Mentioned as an example of a political figure from a different ideological side who Lex Fridman would hypothetically interview.
Mentioned as a political figure Lex Fridman would hypothetically interview. Later discussed for his political style, specific actions like Middle East peace deals, and the Mar-a-Lago document issue.
Mentioned as a political figure Lex Fridman would hypothetically interview. Later mentioned in the context of Putin outplaying presidents in one-on-one scenarios.
Discussed extensively for his anti-Semitic comments, described as awful and stereotypical. Shapiro speculates his behavior points to bipolarism.
Mentioned in relation to Kanye West's comments about Jews being sexual manipulators, linked to his relationship with Kim Kardashian.
Mentioned in relation to Kanye West's comments about Jews being sexual manipulators, linked to her relationship with Pete Davidson.
The second-to-last Chancellor of the Weimar Republic before Hitler, who ultimately campaigned for Hitler to become Chancellor, believing he could be controlled.
Former Twitter CEO, whose stance on free speech shifted significantly between 2015 and 2018, leading to more platform control.
Facebook CEO, whose views on free speech and platform responsibility changed after 2018, leading to more content moderation. Also mentioned in conversation with Joe Rogan.
Mentioned as the interviewer of Mark Zuckerberg regarding Russian interference and the Hunter Biden laptop story. Also mentioned for his use of mushrooms as an escape.
Philosopher and podcast host, mentioned by Shapiro for his willingness to challenge his audience and for past debates on atheism and morality.
Conservative commentator, discussed for her audacious statements, specifically her controversial response to Kanye West's anti-Semitic remarks.
BBC interviewer with whom Ben Shapiro had a viral, adversarial interview where Shapiro lost his temper. Shapiro later regretted not researching him.
Irish novelist, mentioned as someone Andrew Miller, Shapiro's 11th-grade English teacher, studied with at Trinity College Dublin.
Russian President, discussed in the context of the Ukraine war, his strategic cunning, and the potential best/worst case scenarios if he is deposed or uses nuclear weapons.
President of Ukraine, mentioned for his comedic background and current stance on complete victory in the war, making it hard for him to accept peace terms.
Former German Chancellor, mentioned in a joke by Zelenskyy about Ukraine's potential NATO membership.
Former US Secretary of State, mentioned as a 'realist' whose approach to foreign policy Ben Shapiro has come to align with more.
Co-host of The Young Turks, mentioned by Shapiro as someone he has had cordial debates with, finding common ground on some issues like corporate/government power.
Industrialist, mentioned in the context of the history of government subsidization of industry, presumably for the Ford Motor Company.
Economist and author of 'Basic Economics,' mentioned in comparison to Henry Hazlitt.
Author of 'The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self,' whose work Ben Shapiro highly praises for explaining contemporary social politics.
Controversial media personality, Shapiro states he dislikes Alex Jones but believes he should be allowed back on Twitter to uphold free speech principles.
Discussed for his personal qualities (good father, empathetic) and political actions (radical agenda, low approval ratings), and also in the context of the Hunter Biden laptop story and Ukraine war.
A transgender influencer, mentioned in the context of Biden inviting Mulvaney to the White House and discussing 'gender mutilation of minors', which Shapiro views as radical.
Host of The Young Turks, mentioned by Shapiro as someone he has debated.
California Congressperson, mentioned as someone Ben Shapiro expects to do a Sunday special with, described as a 'very nice guy.'
An apparel brand mentioned in the context of an ad read by Ben Shapiro, where he uses self-deprecating humor.
Former US President, mentioned in the context of the history of government subsidization of industry.
Former US President, mentioned in the context of his industrial policy and the history of government subsidization.
Presumably mentioned as an example of a great historical figure who is often idealized or demonized, fitting the 'hero/villain archetype.'
Founder of the World Economic Forum, cited by Shapiro as advocating for massive carbon taxes, which Shapiro believes illustrate the unworkability of current climate proposals.
Canadian psychologist and author, whose 'lobster' analogy is brought up by Fridman in response to Shapiro's 'good cup holds liquid' analogy.
Deceased founder of Breitbart News, described as a mentor to Ben Shapiro, known for his engaging personality and militant approach in later life.
Author of 'Economics in One Lesson,' praised by Shapiro for making macroeconomics accessible.
Former Supreme Court Justice, mentioned for her argument that pregnancy could be seen as a form of sex discrimination, thus supporting pro-choice.
Bioethicist at Princeton, mentioned for his controversial views that self-consciousness (and thus moral consideration) doesn't exist until age two and a half, potentially justifying infanticide.
Nobel Prize-winning economist, cited for his view that at least 1.5 degrees Celsius of climate change is inevitable ('baked into the cake').
Enlightenment philosopher, whose deontological (rule-based) ethics are contrasted with virtue ethics and Shapiro's 'role ethics.'
Philosopher, whose ideas on liberalism and liberty are discussed in relation to political theory.
Former US President, whose idea that an alien invasion would unite humanity is mentioned in the context of tribalism.
A conservative political commentary show hosted by Ben Shapiro.
A newspaper that Ben Shapiro reads as part of his media diet for news and information.
A historical book about Hitler by William Shirer, praised by Shapiro for its descriptive rather than critical approach.
A conservative news and opinion website and media company, co-founded by Ben Shapiro.
A newspaper that Ben Shapiro reads as part of his media diet for news and information.
A company that terminated its contract with Kanye West due to his controversial comments, used as an example of a company that is not a platform and thus can respond to speech.
California Institute of Technology, mentioned as a place where climatologists work and understand climate science.
The democratic government of Germany from 1918 to 1933, whose collapse allowed Hitler to centralize power.
A cryptocurrency, Ben Shapiro mentioned learning about it by reading nine books after asking for recommendations.
Proposed package of U.S. economic stimulus programs that aim to address climate change and economic inequality, which Shapiro views as unworkable.
Mentioned in relation to advising social media companies about Russian interference in elections, which led to the suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop story.
A fact-checking website, mentioned as an example of an entity that might subjectively label information as 'out of context' or misinformation.
The Anti-Defamation League, which measured Ben Shapiro as the number one target of anti-Semitism on Earth in 2016.
A conservative news and opinion website, mentioned by Ben Shapiro as part of his alternative media diet.
A conservative news and entertainment network, mentioned by Ben Shapiro as part of his alternative media diet.
Mentioned in a report by The Intercept, suggesting that DHS collaborated with Twitter employees to monitor 'disinformation.'
A newspaper that Ben Shapiro reads as part of his media diet for news and information.
A newspaper that Ben Shapiro reads as part of his media diet for news and information.
A newspaper that Ben Shapiro reads as part of his media diet for news and information.
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, whose estimates on climate change reality Ben Shapiro generally accepts.
An international organization for public-private cooperation, whose founder Klaus Schwab is mentioned in the context of climate policy.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, mentioned as a place where climatologists work and understand climate science.
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